One is much more useful to the Capitalist and so it will ultimately prevail. The capitalist will devote all resources to crushing the leftist populism up to and including directly funding fascism.

Unless. We have to spread these ideas to as many people as possible. We can’t afford to call it early.

it might have been restarted later, but it would have stopped first

Fascism doesn’t stop until everyone internalizes that fascism is a terrible ideology. And then keeps teaching that to new generations.

this happened. it was real. it likely still is real. atop denying history to spare fucking Nazis.

Killing people won’t kill their ideas. The myth of lost cause would still have been spread by non-slave owners. It just would have taken longer. People don’t have to directly learn about fascism from a 20th century fascist to become fascists. Even if every living Nazi, fascist, and confederate sympathizer dropped dead right now we would run into this problem sooner rather than later. Ideas and information are freely available on the internet. They circulate faster than ever before. If we don’t defeat these ideas then we will keep having this problem no matter how many people die.

so why are you arguing with me?

I was agreeing with you. I added my two cents.

hard disagree. it would have stopped. maybe somebody would have dug it up later and started it back up, but it would have stopped.

People who weren’t Nazis knew what fascism was. Fascists wrote books and gave speeches. Fascism would still exist in peoples’ minds as a concrete idea that can be communicated to other people even if no Nazis survived the war.

I met them. their grandchildren and great children, at family reunions. they worked hard to craft and propagate these myths. they were proud of it. expected their grandchildren to keep it up.

People who didn’t own slaves spread the myth as well. Killing entire families of slave owners would not have stopped this.

The fascists and confederate sympathizers of today aren’t necessarily direct biological descendants of those in the past. They are ideological descendants.

don’t think I referred to tfem as a race but I could have. I’m not super likely to bother scrolling up for a hezbarite though.

I was referring to the poster above you.

the ideas could have been spread by people who weren’t Nazis, but were I’m this actual extant timeline spread by actual Nazis.

My point is that killing all Nazis wouldn’t have prevented Fascism from spreading.

american civil war was the same. every one of those slaver families needed to die. every adult, and possibly the children, if they weren’t adopted out

Killing all slave owners wouldn’t have stopped the Lost Cause of the Confederacy myth which is responsible for the confederate sympathizers we have today. The myth is an idea and can be spread by people who don’t own slaves.

I thought one of the best lessons was that you don’t deal with an aggressive and genocidal nation through appeasement.

That was also one of the lessons. It’s why we are sending weapons to Ukraine to fight Russia and plan on defending Taiwan against China.

We should be fighting against Israel, not appeasing them.

It would be a lot easier to do that if we hadn’t be allied with Israel for over 75 years. It’s not normal for allies to turn on each other like that.

Regardless, there can be more than one lesson from a historical event. Fascism is an idea. It has to be fought with other ideas.

Israeli is not the same thing as Jewish.

Yes, I am Jewish, but not Israeli. I assumed most people referring to Israelis as a race are referring to Jews a race. It seems weird to confuse nationality with race in the 21st century.

Many Jewish people hate Israel.

I don’t hate Israel, because hating Israel is more taxing to me than it is to Israel. I think Israel is an apartheid state that’s committing genocide and war crimes in Gaza, Zionism is a fascist ideology, the current Israeli government is dominated by fascists, and that the concept that we need a Jewish ethnostate in order to be safe is ridiculous. Israel needs to change radically and it needs to change as soon as possible.

Typically when people are saying Jews are a race, they referring to the idea that Jews are not White, as in they cannot be White. Jews can be White, but they can also be Black, Native American or Hispanic. Jews are not in a racial category that excludes them from being part of these groups. That’s what I was referring to when I wrote race.

That’s not really the main point, I was agreeing with the person I responding to and adding some clarification. It seemed to have distracted from the issue at hand.

Killing people isn’t how we stop the spread of fascism in the modern day. We need to spread information, for example, that fascism is a self-destructive ideology that will destroy hundreds of millions of lives and that the Republican Party is controlled by fascists. I think most people know that on lemmy, but there are plenty of people who will check into politics in the months leading up to the election and form their opinions then. A misconception I see on lemmy is that some people assume we can defeat fascism with guns alone. That isn’t going to cut it. We have to reach more people with true information before fascists reach them with misinformation. Once a person forms an opinion they are unlikely to discard that opinion when presented with new information in the short term. That short term can easily last until the election, so these months leading up to the election are crucial. edit: capitalization

who the fuck mentioned Jews here? I’m talking about Israelis, cut your equivocating antisemitic bullshit.

If someone refers to Israelis as a race I would assume they are confusing Jews, an ethnic group, culture and religion as a race as opposed to confusing Israelis, a nationality, as a race.

we didn’t stop Nazism because we didn’t kill enough Nazis, on either side of the ocean. the fuckers who got social media in on it can be traced back to that. if we’d killed more Nazis then, we wouldn’t have these problems now.

Even if we had killed everyone who was a Nazi, the ideas could be still be spread by people who are not Nazis and then internalized and adopted by a new group of Nazis. Ideas outlive the people came up with them and believed in them. The best that would do is kick the can further down the road, but we still have to deal with this problem eventually.

Jews are an ethnic group, culture, and religion, but not a race. It’s a common enough misconception spread via the media. Also any given Jew is not necessarily all three.

The lesson from World War II is that war can only delay the spread of an idea, but not destroy it. Ideas have to be fought with other ideas. Killing Nazis only bought us time to think of better ideas, spread them, and deradicalize people. Thanks to conservative propaganda networks and social media, we’re on the verge of a fascist takeover. We are in an information race against fascists. The fascists are turning the US into a christofascist dictatorship, by controlling the narrative and driving the news cycle, not by killing anyone. We have to beat them in this race to stop them.

Yes, Russia oppressing LGBTQ+ people is bad.

No.

What? Did you write this article? I can’t tell if you’re kidding and agreeing with me or seriously mad and being sarcastic.

Putin’s not going to stop with Ukraine. His expressed ideology is to conquer Europe. It’s effectively manifest destiny for Russia, but all of Europe instead of the western US.

Kraut does a good job of covering this in his video, but it is kind of long. The point is, you don’t have to take it from me.

I don’t see why he would stop with Europe either. There are plenty of Middle Eastern countries that are close by that he can conquer too. Not to mention if Trump is reelected, the US is likely to pull out of NATO and become Russia’s biggest ally.

https://ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/politics/2023/10/24/trump-reportedly-open-to-pulling-u-s--out-of-nato

It’s incredibly important for Russia to be defeated in Ukraine. The Ukrainians are going to be treated like second class citizens under Russia, or simply killed. And Russia is going to run out of non-NATO members to invade and all of us are going to be fighting this war next.

If you need evidence that Russia doesn’t treat minorities well, take a look at this article.

Russia is well known for sending minorities to the meat grinder first.

My good friends, for the second time in our history, a British Prime Minister has returned from Germany bringing peace with honour. I believe it is peace for our time. We thank you from the bottom of our hearts. Go home and get a nice quiet sleep.

The only people engaging in magical thinking are the people who use the phrase as a defense mechanism in their articles. How long the Russo-Ukrainian war lasts is irrelevant as Russia will never stop until it runs out of countries to conquer or collapses. We are better off if Russia collapses into its constituent entities.

but the Biden administration is firmly behind Israel…

Reporting would suggest this is not the case.

Biden administration staff sign open letter demanding cease-fire in Israel-Hamas war

I don’t feel safer because I’ve seen the slide towards fascism way before Trump and I know it will continue towards fascism because this slide includes the support and enabling of Democrats. There is no getting off this train by just electing Biden or the next assless Democrat who will just watch as fascists consolidate power.

Our decent into fascism started with Regan. Although it can be argued Republicans were trying even earlier with Nixon, they just screwed it up.

Democrats are controlled by neoliberals. But they are the most progress option we have and their party includes most of the progressive politicians that we have. Older politicians are finally aging out. Given enough time Democrats could be become a true progressive party and an effective deterrent against fascism. In the mean time, they are the only alternative.

I want the Democratic party to be more progressive, but I know voting for them is only way to stop a fascist takeover from happening.

It’s really telling to me you still consider this a democracy that is against genocide. The President is literally funding and arming a genocide that is happening right now. And when the choice is between a President who supports genocide or a President who supports worse genocide, how is that not already a dictatorship? How is that a functioning democracy? That is why it is even a question.

Biden supports Israel’s right to defend itself, not genocide. Netanyahu and his government chose to commit war crimes, not Biden. Biden has of course gotten this issue wrong. He should be demanding a ceasefire, among other things. Hopefully given enough pressure Biden will change his stance.

What’s been weird about this argument is the commitment to equivocating two individuals who could not be more different. Biden is a neoliberal. Trump is a fascist. Everyone can spot the difference. No one can be fooled by such a thinly veiled deception unless they choose to be. Why are you letting yourself be fooled? The people who want our country to descend into fascism don’t have our best interests at heart. Why go so willingly to our deaths at the hands of the Republicans? The Palestinians won’t be better off with America as a fascist dictatorship. The only way to help the Palestinians, ourselves, or anyone else is with a democracy. Do you just want to guilt trip me or do you think it will somehow get better if we lose our democracy? edit: typo

But you haven’t stopped fascism by voting for Biden, you’ve supported it.

By electing Biden we stopped the fascist takeover in America by another four years. By not voting for Biden, you helped Trump, a fascist.

Sure.

Yep. The truth is Russia lies.

Your vote didn’t stop fascism.

The fascists need to control all three branches of government to complete their take over. We are currently denying them the executive branch. By controlling the Senate as well, we retain the means to appoint judges at all levels of the federal government, not just the Supreme Court. Undoing the damage done by Trump, getting a liberal majority on the Supreme Court and fixing the flaws in our democracy that enabled the fascists in the first place could easily take decades. And during that time we are always going to be one election away from the fascists taking over all three branches of the federal government. We’re going to be voting fascists out of office and preventing fascists from taking office for a while. I believe as long as people continue to tell each other about the danger these fascists present to us all then we will continue to beat them in elections.

He’s been a friend and suporter of Netanyahu for over 40 years, almost half a century; he has continued funding, arming, and militarily as well as politically defending Israel while they commit genocide, but somehow none of that doesn’t make him a fascist supporter yet? Oh, but I didn’t know he was forced to be friendly with fascists. He has little recourse but to deal with fascist genociders, what a shame. Yet he has full power to not recognize or deal with states like Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea, and so on. Weird how that works. It’s almost as if he wants to be on friendly terms with the far Right in Israel for some reason, but I guess I just don’t understand the high levels of geopolitics

Right, the US has been supporting Israel for over 70 years. By your logic, everyone in America is a fascist. Rather than acknowledging the complexity of the Israel-Palestine conflict, you want it to be simple. Israel is bad so America is bad. Biden is American therefore he is bad. The fact that Jews were the victims of the holocaust and Biden wants to foster a country where they can live in peace is simply not a possible motivation as far as you’re concerned. He must want to enable the far right extremists to commit genocide. I could go into detail about I how I think the state of Israel centered in the ‘Holy Land’ was a terrible mechanism to achieve lasting peace for anyone. Problem is we inherited a globe carved up by indifferent Europeans who had no idea what they were doing when they drew the maps. We can try to fix these problems or we can enjoy a position of moral superiority that comes with taking sides. I’m choosing the former.

Yeah, those Palestinian children are much safer in the ground surrounded by their families. You have supported fascism, not everyone is safer because of it. Fascists are safer, though, there’s that at least.

More Palestinian children would be dead if the fascists were in power under Trump. You ignoring that isn’t making me look like a fascist.

edit: typos

You’re delusional if you are not even willing to admit to yourself you voted for a fascist enabler because you wanted to feel safer.

I mean, I do feel safer. You should too. I voted for Biden to stop the fascist take over. I didn’t fully realize how much of a danger it was until Jan 6th. But it’s become crystal clear to me since.

That’s a functional democracy worth defending at the cost of supporting genocide to you?

A democracy that is against genocide is better than a fascist dictatorship that actively pursues genocide at home and abroad. How is that even a question?

I’m not even going to address your either blatant lie or severe historical amnesia about Democratic evangelism, despite the fact you are still proving my point by arguing that choosing Biden to Trump was the morally superior choice and that not voting for Biden ipso facto makes you a Trump supporter (which is morally inferior).

Morality sucks. It often leads people to the wrong conclusions. It’s not about moral superiority. It’s about stopping fascism and millions of deaths.

Is this the same Ukraine where he sends arms and money without demanding that said arms and money do not go towards Nazi regiments such as Azov? Supporting one fascist group which trains US-born fascists against another fascist group has prevented fascism from spreading?

The Azov Brigade has been denazified. The founders of the militia are now in their own political party which thankfully has won zero seats last I checked. Russian propaganda isn’t credible information.

Are you sure that’s all he could do? So he’s powerless to protect us from Christofascists in power? We just have to wait it out?

I have read the constitution. Appointing Supreme Court justices is in fact all he can do in regards to the Supreme Court. The Republicans waited 50 years to take our freedoms away. Now we may very well have to spend 50 years voting to get them back. This is why elections matter.

Here is a transcript. You’ll want article two, section two, paragraph two.

Is Biden’s “unwavering support” for Israel’s Right-wing and genocidal fascist Netanuayu not fascist-enabling? What then is the difference between being “wrong” by funding and arming Israel and continuing to defend them politically, and being a “fascist enabler”?

Biden doesn’t support the fascist right wing of Israel. It’s hard for any world leader to single out the political parties of another country. World leaders have little recourse but to interface with other world leaders. We are reaching a point where we are going to have to start denouncing countries for putting fascists in power. This of course goes against decades of foreign policy of sticking with your allies no matter what. But we are going to have to because fascist dictatorships are incentivized to betray democracies.

Yeah, the difference is you feel safer.

Right. Because I am. And so is everyone else.

Who raised the issue of Trump or the Republican Party when I discussed Biden?

Multiple people did. It’s not whataboutism if the issues are linked. Which they are.

Do you still feel it is a democracy worth defending by approving genocide when the choice is a fascist-enabler and a fascist?

This statement is not based in reality. Trump is a fascist and fascist enabler. Biden is not.

Whataboutism. It’s obnoxious when it isn’t being used against your opponents, right?

It’s not a whataboutism if the issues are linked. Which they are.

I haven’t supported any fascists. The Democratic Party, on the other hand, was the one who guilted you into enabling fascists. Netanyahu has gone mask-off fascist and the Democratic Party guilted you and others into voting for Biden who has been enabling Netanyahu for decades, and continues to do so now. How many people have to be murdered for you to stop supporting Biden? Do you feel any guilt or shame for voting to empower Biden who shipped weapons and sent money to Israel to bomb children and their families?

It’s a two party system. Republicans win with low voter turn out. By not voting for Biden you are helping Trump. It’s just math. You can’t guilt people into supporting a fascist like Trump.

Ah, yes, it’s only my imagination and projection that Democrats were drunk with feelings of moral superiority in the last two elections.

Yes.

Apologies but you are the one in the echo chamber. Our path is inevitable.

You are in echo chamber. We have a chance to avoid disaster but only if we vote the Republican fascists out.

What has Biden done to prevent fascism spreading domestically and abroad? How has Biden stopped the death squads of the IDF killing Muslims right now? When has Biden protected Americans from the Christofascist Supreme Court? How is it worth voting to support genocide to protect a so-called ‘democracy’ when the choice, according to you, is a fascist-enabler and a fascist? When is it worth families being murdered to make you feel safe?

Biden kept us in NATO and is supporting Ukraine. Biden appointed a progress supreme court judge, which is all he can do until more supreme court judges die of old age. Biden has gotten the current events in the Israel-Palestine conflict wrong, but that does not make him a fascist enabler or a fascist. Biden wanted Israel to defend itself from Hamas and minimize civilian casualties. He didn’t tell Israel to commit war crimes.

Trump is a fascist and a fascist enabler. More families will be murdered under him. I feel safer knowing he isn’t in the White House, instructing Israel to commit war crimes. The difference is millions of lives.