• ???@lemmy.worldOP
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    1 year ago

    Tough pill to swallow: don’t use proximity shielding as an excuse to kill civilians in one of the most dense areas in the world.

    • Son_of_dad@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      After Hamas broke through and started murdering people, I swear people just expected Israel to take it? Not react? Not retaliate? Leave? I don’t understand what anyone expected here. Hamas wanted this and knew it would happen.

      • ThunderingJerboa@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        I mean asymmetrical warfare is a messy affair. Hamas gets new recruits who are angered about their family and homes being destroyed. Big nations typically don’t win these kind of engagements in the modern era because at least to modern sensibilities we don’t really want to see pointless slaughter and genocide, this isn’t to advocate for it, quite far from it but historically typically you would have to be ruthless to subjugate people but thankfully modern sensibilities say that is pretty fucked. So really this will either end up another “forever” war or one of the sides will be wiped out entirely.

      • DoctorTYVM@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Yes, there are people who 100% think Israel not only should forgive and forget about Oct 7. Then there are the people who think Israelis deserve that and worse.

      • kozy138@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        You realize Israel has been the aggressor for over 20 years, right? Palestine has finally gathered enough military resources to counter attack in retaliation. It’s self defense at this point

        • glockenspiel@programming.dev
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          1 year ago

          So you agree with the IDF in that targeting civilians is self defense?

          Or are we playing pedantic games again where we try to rationalize bad things by wearing victimized status one moment while murdering children the next? Maybe the IDF and Hamas are both responsible. Hamas aren’t freedom fighters like my fellow lefties are making them out to be. They want a theonomic system. And they have one.

        • lloram239@feddit.de
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          1 year ago

          Well, if they wanna fight, they shouldn’t be complaining that Israel is doing their part in the game. If they wanted peace they could have had it decades ago.

          • hark@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            True, Israel has actually been the aggressor for waaaaaay longer than 20 years.

    • JasSmith@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      Since the Gazans are using their own children as human shields, what do you suggest the Israelis do instead?

        • JasSmith@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          So, nothing? With a mind like yours we could solve this conflict once and for all. Gaza slaughtered innocent children. Doing nothing is an unreasonable expectation. One which you would never accept had your children been murdered. The terrorists must be brought to justice, and yet you want them to be left alone?

          • IchNichtenLichten@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            So, nothing? With a mind like yours we could solve this conflict once and for all.

            Straight to petty little barbs? I guess I upset you.

            Gaza slaughtered innocent children. Doing nothing is an unreasonable expectation.

            Now do Israel, they have blood on their hands too. Do you think Hamas committed the atrocities they did for funsies? That you’re blind to this speaks more to your bias than your understanding of the history of this conflict.

            One which you would never accept had your children been murdered.

            You’re so close to figuring it out, keep going. I believe in you.

            The terrorists must be brought to justice, and yet you want them to be left alone?

            Did I say that? No I didn’t. You started with an ad hominem and ended with a straw man, all in the same paragraph. Nice work, champ.

            • JasSmith@kbin.social
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              1 year ago

              You’ve had two opportunities how to suggest a better path, but the silence is deafening. It’s clear you don’t want the terrorists brought to justice.

              • IchNichtenLichten@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                You want me to single-handedly solve the Israeli-Palestine problem? Do you really think that’s some kind of “gotcha” moment? It’s not.

                We could start with the Israelis ditching Netanyahu and electing a non-war criminal who is committed to a two state solution. That would be a good start.

                • JasSmith@kbin.social
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                  1 year ago

                  You want me to single-handedly solve the Israeli-Palestine problem? Do you really think that’s some kind of “gotcha” moment? It’s not.

                  No, I’m specifically and repeatedly asking what to do with the terrorists. The people who murdered the babies. Not the whole conflict. The terrorists. I wrote that very clearly, and your inability to read that is entirely on you.

                  • IchNichtenLichten@lemmy.world
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                    1 year ago

                    I would’ve thought that was pretty simple. If Israel can kill them without the loss of civilian life, have at it. If they can’t, then they shouldn’t do that.

                    Clear?

          • PsychedSy@sh.itjust.works
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            1 year ago

            Copying your own comments is lazy and comes off as if you don’t take them seriously.

            I’d actually like to see someone answer the question, so it’s kind of sad.

        • JasSmith@kbin.social
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          1 year ago

          So, nothing? With a mind like yours we could solve this conflict once and for all. Gaza slaughtered innocent children. Doing nothing is an unreasonable expectation. One which you would never accept had your children been murdered. The terrorists must be brought to justice, and yet you want them to be given amnesty? It’s always the same with you terrorists sympathisers.

          • ???@lemmy.worldOP
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            1 year ago

            So, nothing?

            Literally Israel can stop committing war crimes but somehow that is not a good enough solution for you. Gaza didn’t slaughter anyone, instead they had to say goodbye to thousands of civilians, in mass graves. Israel is starving and dehydrating them, allowing diseases to spread by ignoring every call for a ceasefire. Israel is committing a genocide. Israel is repeating the atrocities of the holocaust. Palestinians are now dying in the West Bank and in Israeli prisons by the blessing of the army and government, just as Jews were disappearing and being killed on the hands of Nazi Germany. They are being demonized and dehumanized just as Jews were. We need to learn from history. Never again includes Palestinians. This is not only me speaking, but countless Jews around the world and in Israel. Israel has done so much to shame pro-Palestinian and anti-Zionist Jewish peace organizations. It has done all it can to discredit and punish Palestinians. The list is so long, torture and rape, apartheid, land grabbing, etc. Then Bibi himself helped Hamas prosper as an extremist organization to now get a green light for genocide. This is the madness this world is in now.

            What you are suggesting is genocidal. You are calling a population of almost 50% children terrorists and rationalizing their daily murder of Palestinians.

            • JasSmith@kbin.social
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              1 year ago

              Four opportunities now, and you’ve made it clear you want to protect the terrorists. You’re in the minority. They should be brought to justice.

          • ???@lemmy.worldOP
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            1 year ago

            You try to make it look like there is no choice but Israel always had the choice to not kill.

            • JasSmith@kbin.social
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              1 year ago

              You’ve had three opportunities to suggest a better path, but crickets. It’s clear you don’t want the terrorists to be brought to justice.

              • ???@lemmy.worldOP
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                1 year ago

                Yeah totally clear from an internet discussion.

                Please stop going around accusing people of supporting terrorists. No one is doing that here on Lemmy, execpt maybe those who support Israel which is a terrorists state after breaking all these int laws.

                • JasSmith@kbin.social
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                  1 year ago

                  Well if you want to protect the murderous terrorists from justice, you are a terrorist sympathiser. That’s what you are.

        • PsychedSy@sh.itjust.works
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          1 year ago

          Israel keeps saying they’re going to do something then kind of scales it back. They kept knocking after they said they were going to stop, for example. No clue if they are now, but I expected a higher death toll considering population density.

          Also, Hamas and IJ do have some presence in the West Bank. I have no clue how much Israel is focusing on that since media coverage is focused on Gaza, and, well, I don’t fucking trust anyone.

      • dangblingus@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Regular Gazans are not using their children as human shields. Hamas is using children as human shields.

          • barsoap@lemm.ee
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            1 year ago

            A mere 38% would vote for Hamas, and the “attacks against civilians” thing is phrased in a way that makes it meaningless. For one: What’s the motive? Is it genocidal rampage or “I want them to feel the pain they cause us?”

            If you do a poll right now in Israel and ask “Are you in favour of the IDF’s actions in Gaza right now” you’d get very high support for attacks on civilians. See how that works?

            All you’re doing there is say “The enemy is not human, they are animals, they do not deserve humanity”. That that very attitude, Israeli right-wing disregard for Palestinian humanity, made them the way they are is conveniently left out. You may not realise it but you’re using fascist logic.

            • goat@sh.itjust.works
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              1 year ago

              All you’re doing there is say “The enemy is not human, they are animals, they do not deserve humanity”. That that very attitude, Israeli right-wing disregard for Palestinian humanity, made them the way they are is conveniently left out. You may not realise it but you’re using fascist logic.

              The Day of Judgment will not come until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say, ‘O Muslim, O servant of God, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.’ Only the Gharkad tree would not do that, because it is one of the trees of the Jews.

              • barsoap@lemm.ee
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                1 year ago

                I’m pretty sure you can find Kahanite documents saying essentially the same thing in the other direction. And do I have to remind you that there’s currently Kahanites in the Israeli government. You don’t get to complain about other people’s fascists before you deal with yours at home.

                Also how are you still equating Palestinians at large and Hamas.

                  • barsoap@lemm.ee
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                    1 year ago

                    They’re the resident dictatorship, yes, there haven’t been elections since 2006, and the reason they got into power was less about Hamas being strong but Fatah being weak because corrupt. Last Israeli elections? 2022, resulting in Netanyahu and his Kahanites. And that even though pudding is still expensive… care to justify that?

                    Polls also clearly show that Gazans want democracy back, that they want Hamas to hand over security to the PA, and various other things. If you want Gazans to get rid of Hamas themselves, go ahead, be my guest, give them the weapons to do so… or how else do you suppose would they be able to do it? With prayers?

                    Stop fucking deflecting responsibility. Clean up your own house before you complain about that of your neighbour.