Yeah, but because amongst all those people killed by the Israeli army in the very place they told them to shelter, there isn’t a nice looking western girl with glamour pictures on social networks, the murder of those people will never cause the same disgust in the West as the plight of the girl kidnapped by Hamas which has been turned into a constantly repeated Israeli propaganda piece (you can tell it’s now being pushed as propaganda because it’s been repeated well beyond its newsworthiness and always with the same glamour picture).
The gapping chasm in numbers between those murdered by Israel and those by Hamas is inverted in terms of the disgust they cause in the West exactly because Israeli has a vastly superior propaganda machine.
Thinking people would start wondering why, reliably, 100s of murdered palestinians are portrayed with less emphasys than 1 kidnapped israeli-german teenager.
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According to these lemmy POS apologists:
“Revolutions are messy”
I’ll remember that when it’s someone they like getting disemboweled.
It’s just messy hun.
I mean, disembowelments have the potential to be extremely messy
Not always, some EU countries went through peaceful revolutions.
Who?
There’s general wiki about nonviolent revolutions link
Yeah. They suck. Having your home and life destroyed sucks, it all sucks that’s why people aren’t rushing to do it.
People don’t actually really want to have a revolution as much as they would like things to get better. And if someone is hurt enough they might not care as much. It’s why we say people are still too comfortable to do it.
But this was a cold comment.
How did the post a video of her lifeless body if she’s still alive?
People don’t seem to believe she’s still alive. She certainly won’t be in a Gaza hospital, already under blockade, about to be deliberately starved and bombed out by the Israeli army.
Unconscious isn’t exactly that much better regardless.
People don’t seem to believe she’s still alive.
we did it reddit
I’d say the almost glee with which that girl’s horror has been exploited by the “propaganda machine” betrays an inhumanity almost to the level of those parading her around.
Her mother still seems to believe she’s alive and is calling for news about her (hence why I went with “kidnapped”, since frankly I don’t know if she’s dead or alive and in the circus that the poor girl’s fate has been turned into, it’s hard to know where truth ends and “conveninent assumptions” start).
I’m disgusted all around by the inhumanity of doing what was done to her and to those in that party and the inhumanity of using that as justification to, with the calous premeditation that was described here, murder innocent people deemed as “other” and hence lesser.
As I wrote elsewhere, I blame the US and to some extent Europe for not really properly fucking up both sides to such an extent that genuine peace was the only viable option: beyond the moral considerations on only going after the weaker side, not forcing the stronger to take the boot out of the necks of those on the weaker side has just created a situation were thousands of young people literally have nothing to lose from joining a terrorist organisation, so it was a massive act of stupidty.
I know you don’t think you are, but you’re really misguided and have been taken in by some messed up propaganda. You’re missing SO much but I get it’s popular to rag on Israel and the US right now, so it’s kind of easy to just go with the flow.
Two days ago, hundreds of innocent people were ambushed and murdered at a music festival by some Palestinians.
A terrorist attack, just like telling people to shelter in a specific place and then bombing them is a terrorist attack.
I’m pointing out the vastly different treatment given to terror attacks depending on who did them.
On Principle I’m against treating some murders of civilians as less important or more excusable than other murders of civilians because of the “side” who did the deed, and weaponize for propaganda murders in the same manipulative way as used in marketing to sell shaving cream or fast food.
I’m quite curious about what actual Principle anchors your idea that “judging the killing of people for the purpose of terrifying the rest exactly the same no mater who does it” is “misguided”.
You’re missing SO much but I get it’s popular to rag on Israel and the US right now
it’s popular to rag on Israel and the US right now
Where are you that this is a “popular” stance?
Lemmy
Where are you that this is a “popular” stance?
It gets confusing with the various Lemmy instances.
These people need to go outside and touch grass. The Internet ≠ real life
Bro we can skip back two days before that too and all it would show is an exchange basically daily but with a massive disparity of force up to this point.
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See, on the one hand you’re validly calling out sensationalism and propaganda, but on the other you’re kind of going further the other way. She wasn’t kidnapped, she was murdered and her corpse mutilated, paraded and spat on. And it isn’t her vs 100s of murdered Palestinians, she is but a figurehead representing hundreds dead in Israel.
In any case, tallying up which side did what and who was worse really isn’t productive here, it won’t lead to any useful kind of resolution. The issue isn’t what they do, because at this point they’ve pretty much done it all before. The issue is that people on both sides keep doing it.
Agreed. There’s only one solution. The UN needs to disarm both sides, depose their governments and make the whole area a UN protectorate. Remove any illegal settlements. Try anyone on both sides involved in war crimes or human rights violations.
Israel and Palestine can not behave like grown ups? Take away their toys and put them in time out.
A foreign military occupation of an entire region in the Middle East to ensure peace.
Does anyone remember how this one goes?
I’ll take standing under a mission accomplished banner on an aircraft carrier for $200.
Absolutely agree. The two sides need to be separated and put in time out.
However disarming Israel is politically impossible when they’re a cyber weapons super power.
Israel is a way more prosper place than Palestine and hence its people have way more to lose if the country is placed under sanctions, its companies cut off from trading with the West and its members of governament personally held accountable internationally.
(Basically they’re susceptible to the same kind of pressure that forced the authorities in South Africa to end Apartheid and have genuinelly democratic elections)
Those who have the most to lose are the easiest to convince, which is also why, on the other side, not even treating Hamas as a terrorist organisation (which is an even harder thing than “mere” sanctions) has stopped them from finding “soldiers” - as long as Israel makes sure those born in Palestine have nothing to lose, for many even joining an organisation internationally viewed as terrorist is still a step-up in life.
If you pardon my language (but I think the situation deserves it), it’s quite paradoxical that the International community has to fuck up Israel enough so that they stop fucking up the life of Palestinians so much, to the point that the lives of said Palestinians improves enough that they end up having enough to lose from siding with or joining Hamas (which is alread being fucked up).
Then again, maybe it’s not a paradox: look at how the only way to stop a similar bully, Russia, requires “fucking them up” in that way (being more integrated with the West, not having natural resources like that, and being a whole lot more democratic (even if imperfectly so) Israel would be a lot easier to sway away from acting as a bully.
As far as I can see, it’s either that or the genocide of Palestinians and I would hope that not even in this day and age and not even if it’s one of the “slow boiling” kind, most people in the West would be ok with a genocide.
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Ohh hey we’re just being openly racist to Muslims again? What is it 2002?
It’s all over Lemmy. It’s clearly allowed.
That doesn’t mean ignoring them is the correct answer.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!! …oh, you’re serious.
I mean they can also just keep bombing and torturing each other for the next 100 years, it’s been working so well so far.
Sadly, as history shows, humans actually keep doing just about that.
Yeah, nobody has quite the strength even for these two sides. First, war is not a linear application of resources, it’s unpredictable. Second, that’d be a precedent every nation with conflicts would try to prevent, and such nations are usually the strongest. Third, we’ve all seen over the years how well UN missions, peacekeepers etc work.
This is the most historically ignorant comment I’ve seen this past week. There have been multiple wars in the past century where Arab nations were the aggressor and had the stated goal of genociding the Jews in Israel. Also, the last time the UN actually did something approaching that scale was the Korean War. Absolutely nothing since. They’re incapable of defending an entire nation.
Any plan that involves the disarmament of Israel is just a plan for genocide. Educate yourself, you’re unbelievably ignorant yet you have access to the internet.
EDIT: Purposefully murder dozens of babies? Coexistence is possible!
You think their neighbors are going to attack a multinational UN taskforce? I don’t think you have the right to call anyone ignorant honestly.
Yes? Terrorists from neighboring countries already attack Israel, a vastly stronger military force than they are. We literally just saw Hamas terrorists gladly launch themselves into suicide attacks to hurt Israel. There are multiple nations near Israel (i.e. Iran) that don’t give a fuck about the UN.
It doesn’t have to be an organized military from a sovereign nation to attack and kill hundreds or thousands. If you want to actually stop the regional violence you would need to disarm the entire Middle East.
Ofcourse Iran cares about the UN. You think they don’t know what will happen if they blow up a few German or American peacekeepers?
You think Bibi’s policy of concentration camps and mass bombing is going to improve things? It’s worked so well so far.
The arrogance to think anybody would shy away from attacking “a UN taskforce”.
You know, PKs get killed all the time. UN employees get killed. Everybody gets killed.
You think it’s going to be different here? Or you are just ignorant of how this works cause it’s not interesting?
UN is not something which would enforce rules. It’s not built for that, it’s not a world government.
The arrogance of thinking indefinite bombing and killing will get you what you want.
I’m not saying it will be easy, but if the world doesn’t enforce something endless cycle of killing will never stop. Neither side is interested in anything other than extermination now. Not acting will result in some form of genocide. You could say one is already underway.
It’s not about easy or hard, it’s about this not happening cause there’s no force to make it happen.
You’re acting like we’re just talking about “actions” that people are “doing.”
What you’re ignoring is the apartheid society created by Israel. They’re directly responsible for the conditions that foster this type of response.
This isn’t a “both sides are just as bad” thing. One of these groups has been horrifically oppressed and kept in the largest open-air prison on the planet for nearly 100 years. Any time Hamas has attacked Israeli soldiers (you know, because they’re literally kicking them out of their family homes they’ve lived in for generations. Which is genocide btw), Israel has responded by slaughtering hundreds to thousands of Palestinian (not Hamas) civilians. It’s completely disproportionate.
I’m not defending or justifying, just trying to explain.
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Because that’s what I said. It’s like you can’t even try to act in good faith.
Love how there’s no call for responsibility when it’s Israel committing the atrocities. Here’s just some examples out of thousands:
A child being collaterally hit in an air strike or as part of an ongoing military campaign is not at all equivalent to beheading babies because you want to exterminate Jews.
Both are bad, in the way that stepping on a rusty nail and being hit by a train are both bad, and they are similarly not equivalent.
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Displacement isn’t genocide.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_Convention#Definition_of_genocide
Seems to fit to me.
It seems to fit to you because your initial operating assumption is that you should support the terrorists here and everything else you believe is distorted to meet those expectations.
For instance, Israel told the civilians to move to the city of 120k people that is called a refugee camp, but is in fact a full on 80 year old city, and fourteen people died in an airstrike on a Hamas position.
But you didn’t Google the city “camp” or look past the claims at all, because your initial assumption is “Israel bad, Hamas good.”
You are indeed defending terrorists who kill families of civilians with no overarching military goal in mind at all.
no one says hamas is good. but they don’t need to be in order for israel to be bad.
It seems to fit to you because your initial operating assumption is that you should support the terrorists here and everything else you believe is distorted to meet those expectations.
You know nothing about me, and fuck you for making an accusation like that. Shameful.
I know what you state, and that’s what you stated.
If that offends you, take a long look in the mirror and sort your life out
terrorist is loaded language.
Terrorism is indeed when you kill civilians with no military aim in mind. Invading a country specifically to murder their families in their homes is absolutely terrorism.
I wasn’t really ignoring it, merely addressing the point that was raised.
I’ve said this elsewhere, but going through and trying to tally up who’s done what and which side is worse is pretty much a futile exercise. It won’t lead to any useful resolution. They’ve been going at it for so long, both sides have done horrific things that were disproportionate responses to the other side. They’ve pretty much done it all. The bigger issue is less what they do, more that they both keep doing it.
They’ve been going at it for so long, both sides have done horrific things that were disproportionate responses to the other side.
This just is not true. There is a massively imbalanced power dynamic there. They’ve been keeping the Palestinian population in an open-air prison for at least half a century. They’re literally incapable of responding disproportionately to what Israel is constantly doing to them. They don’t have the resources or freedom of movement.
Just look up the casualty statistics on both sides since at least since the end of WW2. It’s been some time since I’ve looked at them, but we’re talking at least one (possibly more) order of magnitude difference between the two.
They’re literally incapable of responding disproportionately to what Israel is constantly doing to them.
I would say raiding towns and villages and beheading babies is a disproportionate response to anything.
There is definitely a power imbalance, and Israel has probably killed more Palestinians overall than the other way around. However, Israel have also shown some measure of restraint up until now - they’ve never completely eradicated Palestine, as Palestinians frequently claim to want for Israelis and have previously attempted to do, even though Israel actually could. Israel has definitely not shown enough restraint, but they’ve shown more than they would likely face if the balance of power was the other way around.
There’s also the twisted mess of politics. Members of the government of Israel have at many times over the years promoted the support of terrorist groups in Palestine as a way of destabilising Palestine as a nation. So, even while the actions of Hamas on Saturday were horrific and unforgiveable, some Israelis have actively been encouraging this kind of thing.
Like I say, tallying up who’s done what doesn’t really get you anywhere. Both have done horrific and unforgiveable things. It’s like comparing shit covered apples to shit covered oranges, you can talk about the differences as much as you like - and you might even be correct in everything you say - but at the end of the day the biggest problem is that they’re both covered in shit.
The IDF are no saints. They’ve done some awful awful things. Including targeting clearly marked medics and press, and murdering children for throwing rocks at them.
Yep, it is relatively easy to find video of IDF humiliating and torturing young people at checkpoints or around their home in the most cowardly manner on earth, seriously it was hard to see.
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The Israeli-German girl is apparently still alive and in criticial condition in the Indonesian hospital in Gaza. She wasn’t murdered (though of course she could still succumb to whatever was done to her).
And she’s also 30 while somehow being 22. The reporting on this has been atrocious.
Got a link?
Sorry for the German link. It’s the most reliable source I could find, tho.
https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/shani-deutsche-hamas-israel-100.html
tl;dr her aunt says she’s alive in a hospital. No way to verify. Assumption that she’s alive is based on credit card activity.
Assumption that she’s alive is based on credit card activity.
Surely credit card activity isn’t a strong indicator.
Of some bearded terrorist guy going to belly dance clubs in Cairo, surely.
Two points:
- As her mother is calling for news about her I’ll go with her belief of “not dead” until proven otherwise given how the poor girl has been turned into a - as you so well put - “figurehead” for propaganda. I confess I’m one of those weird people who prefers to believe that others are merelly “kidnapped” rather than dead.
- I’m glad you’re beginning to start to get my point about the use of figureheads to make the smaller number of people murderer on one side seem more disgusting to a western audience than the much larger number of deaths on the other side. That’s exactly how propaganda works: turn individual humans into symbols and parade their horrible fate as justification to kill lots of those “other” humans most of whom are blamed by association.
I’m disgusted that a few days ago some terrorists attacked a music festival and killed hundreds and you’re defending the terrorists. It sounds like you’ve been taken in by some propaganda yourself.
If condemning terrorists attacking innocent people at a music festival means I’m a product of propaganda, then so be it.
You’re absolutelly right in condemning terrorist attacks like that one.
All terrorist attacks should be condemned, including ordering people to shelter in a specific place and bombing them as describe here.
If your condemnation is indeed Principled, then all such acts of murder for the purposed of terrifying the rest are equally repugnant and you’ll condemn them equally no matter the “side” of those who did such disgusting acts.
As Principle seems to be notably absent in how so many commenters have tackled the subject matter (with only some murders being important, not others, depending on which “side” did it), I pointed it out.
Let’s not forget that the act of using civilians as shields is a warcrime in the first place to prevent this kind of situation from occurring.
If Israel tells Palestinian civilians to evacuate because there’s Hamas military targets in that building, and Hamas troops tell them no. Then they die, and Hamas can cry wolf.
It would be Israel who is following international decorem and Hamas making it difficult for any country to support them.
Just now, Austria cut off aid to the Gaza region. Is that Israel’s fault? Nope.
Hamas had good PR going and they fucked it up by escalating with brutality.
Cutting off power to Palestinians is also a war crime. Why are war crimes only bad when Palestine does them an not when Israel does them 5x as often?
I’m not justifying anything that Israel has done in the past. The main point of my comment is that Hamas made a really poor decision here on behalf of the Palestinians. There is absolutely no doubt.
There is no moralizing or whataboutism.
The fact of the matter is that this caused a divided Israel to unite in anger. And support for Palestine has been cut by all European nations and Australia. Palestinian sympathizers and charity leaders have been among the victims.
The question you should be asking is if you support the Palestinian people is…
What the actual hell is this bonehead decision-making by Hamas? There is no scenario of success in this endeavor unless the Western world decided to withdraw all support from Israel and give it to Hamas.
Was that going to happen? No. Hamas never tried to establish good diplomatic relations with anyone.
The world stage is a democratic club, and Hamas rejected it all. Hamas burned every single bridge with other countries no matter how many citizens of those governments complain.
Please don’t talk past me.
Literally the first thing the US does in any engagement is cut the power.
It’s not a war crime lol
With certain limitations, parts of a country’s electrical grid can be considered legitimate targets if they are used to power military facilities. This is true even if the targets have a civilian as well as a military purpose, so long as destroying the object would “offer a definite military advantage”
Israeli authorities’ cutting off electricity to Gaza and other punitive measures against Gaza’s civilian population would amount to unlawful collective punishment, which is a war crime, said the Human Rights Watch on 9 October.
As if the US gives a single fuck about war crimes. If we did, at least 5 people from George W. Bush’s administration would be rotting in prison right now.
Yes, it’s still a war crime when we do it.
That terrorist attack has already happened, and there’s another terrorist attack underway, this time with cassette munitions and white phosphorus and in general very different capabilities, done by another side.
Attacking kids at a music festival? Or attacking a terrorist organization? Your false equivalency is despicable.
Just admit it. You hate Jewish people. Stop pretending there is some moral equivalent for Hamas attacking and indiscriminately killing innocent people, and Israel trying to stamp out an entrenched terror cell that is using their people as meat shields to somehow manipulate people like you into thinking they’re the good guys. 🙄
First, you wrote some incomprehensible bullshit, second, I’m part Jewish.
That sucks that you’re part Jewish and still hate them so much that you go on the internet and support killing them.
Sure buddy, I am also Steve jobs
See, on the one hand you’re validly calling out sensationalism and propaganda, but on the other you’re kind of going further the other way. She wasn’t kidnapped, she was murdered and her corpse mutilated, paraded and spat on. And it isn’t her vs 100s of murdered Palestinians, she is but a figurehead representing hundreds dead in Israel.
You know, google for “Anush Apetyan” and consider that Israel is Azerbaijan’s main military supplier after Russia, and almost an ally, and nothing from what Azerbaijani troops are doing (just the same Hamas stuff) seems to have any effect.
Also Israel is a genocide-denier state. Israelis on the Web like to behave all cynical and realpolitik-enjoying and “what are you going to do” on subjects similar to what Hamas has done in Sderot etc.
I’d say there is an element of crocodile tears in this.
Action should be taken to prevent anybody doing anything like this again, to Israelis or anybody else, but that doesn’t mean Israel somehow got moral. Promoting that would be exploiting events for propaganda.
Action should be taken to prevent anybody doing anything like this again, to Israelis or anybody else, but that doesn’t mean Israel somehow got moral. Promoting that would be exploiting events for propaganda.
Absolutely agreed. Israel is justified in some measure of response, to prevent future attacks and rescue hostages. They are not justified in the bombing of Gaza that they’ve been doing instead.
The point I was making though is that using Shani Louk as some kind of figurehead is in no way disingenuous. It’s somewhat unfair that Palestine doesn’t have similar figureheads of their own to garner support (and indeed this is a direct result of Israel blocking media access), but that doesn’t mean that what happened to Shani isn’t a valid symbol of everything that was wrong with the attack on Saturday.
The only reason it’s not productive, in your opinion, is because it makes the side you support look REALLY fucking bad.
“Why can’t we all come together and forget the 6+ decades of horrific oppression and wildly disproportionate warfare, and all just get along?”
No, the reason it’s not productive to dig through all the atrocities is that, provided you keep at least something of an open mind, you’ll quickly get sick of both sides and not even want to bother finding any solution.
Both sides have indiscriminately murdered civillians and children. They might have done it in different ways, one side might have managed to kill more than the other, but they’ve both done barbaric things.
I don’t support either “side” in this.
“Why can’t we all come together and forget the 6+ decades of horrific oppression and wildly disproportionate warfare, and all just get along?”
This kind of strawman statement confirms that you aren’t arguing in good faith, you’ve only come here to spew bullshit.
tallying up which side did what and who was worse really isn’t productive here
rephrased…“Let’s not bicker and argue over who killed who”. Serious conversation and that is what my mind locks on. Go figure.
It’s actually because the “refugee camp” is a city of 120,000 people that have been there for 76 years in permanent buildings.
It was struck because militants were firing from it. Yes, there will be civilian casualties while Hamas is hiding in civilian structures. That’s what Hamas does.
You’re falling for their playbook, their propaganda machine, so to speak. Everyone knew this was going to happen the moment Hamas struck.
Everyone knew this was going to happen the moment Hamas struck.
This. All part of the terrorist’s playbook - invoke persecution to radicalise more people.
It doesn’t make Israel’s behavior ok, but the crocodile tears are a bit sickening.
Beyond just ‘not ok’, Israel’s response is playing out exactly how the terrorist’s playbook says the terrorized country should respond: terrorist launches a terrorist attack, terrorized country responds with forced, civilians hit in the crossfire blame the terrorized country and move towards the terrorists.
In the past few days, we have been hering Israeli officials refer to this as their 9/11. What they do not seem to appreciate with their comparison is that the emotion ladden responce the US engaged in after 9/11 proved to be one of the greatest military blunders in the countries history.
If they want to learn a lesson from 9/11, they should address the immediate military threat, fix the security and intelligence failures that allowed the attack to be so successful (such as diverting soldiers away from the Gaza border; and (allegedly) ignoring warnings that Hamas was planning an attack). Once the immediate concerns are addressed, they should back off and allow time for cooler heads to think through what a strategically effective response would look like and implement that.
Unfortunately, such a response is politically difficult in the best of circumstances. Given that the current ruling coalition is almost the definition of hotter heads, built itself up on the promise of “security”, and was already on shaky ground domestically, I don’t think they have many options other than a rash response.
Hopefully they constrain themselves to just responding in Gaza. If they decide to respond by going after Hamas’s supporters in, say Iran, we are looking at a major regional war.
Yeah, everyone is focusing on the brutality of Hamas’ murders instead of the numbers.
I’m sure Hamas would be using airstrikes against Israel, if they could.
War is horrible and the granparents of today’s Palestinians were unjustly hunted and hurt. But if Hamas had not gone on slaughter spree on civilians and their fighters would not be hiding behind their their own kids and women to protect themselves from retaliation, maybe the fight would take place strictly between combatants or even better, on the social media and internet to show what’s wrong.
And no, it doesn’t matter whether kid is EU, Arabian or any other looking. When there was earthquake not long ago, everyone was sympathetic with middle east looking kids being pulled out of debris.There’s been an earthquake just a few days ago in Afghanistan, Pakistan etc, killing more than 2000 people, and by your comment I can see you don’t even know about it.
And I was arguing against Hamas immediately after it happened, but now I’m arguing against Israel because the original comment is right, they have now adjusted all their propaganda tools to use the events to justify ethnic cleansing with lots of civilian dead right now.
Gazan women and children are not responsible for “their fighters” or Hamas, just as Israeli women and children are not responsible for bombs falling on Gaza.
I’m disgusted with both, but proportionally to their strength.
just as Israeli women
They could be part of IDF as military service is mandatory for every israeli whatever the gender (~3y for men and 2y for women).
so don’t speak in term of gender but in term of class.
Strictly speaking, there are very few women in the combat units of the IDF.
But yes, you understood me correctly. I meant civilians.
You missed my point or are trying to twist it.
I have not said that world is informed about everything that happens everywhere all the time. I have said that people feel sad for any hurt kid regardless of colour of their skin and I gave an example which you totally ignored. I could very well blame you for bad things happening to the kids in Mexico or Latin America in general if you aren’t informed about that but that would be stupid wouldn’t it?The feel sad on different levels. For some kinds of sad billions of military aid are warranted, and for other kinds of sad thoughts and prayers, and there are even situations of “sad, but they had it coming”.
You forgot to mention that in some places if you come with aid your lifeless body gets paraded half naked through the streets on pickup truck and spitted on or mutilated on spot.
You also forgot to mention that while EU people feel sorry for suffering of all kids. Some places you talk about celebrate death of every caucasian looking kid as new year event.
It might be one of the reason why some place don’t get e.g. international humanitarian help.
Yeah, only there’s no correlation at all usually between this and my comment.
It does, think about it.
The “human shields” reasoning has been circulating for at least a decade. “Look, we had to kill the civilians, the militants were hiding behind them!” I don’t know on what planet that reasoning is supposed to be acceptable.
War or killing is never acceptable. Unfortunately in this case it seems less of the two evils due to Hammas making sure everyone can see what atrocities they are capable off instead of showing world what Palestinians hardship is like.
Its 2023, we catch the American government trying to cover this shit up all the time https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/12/18/us/airstrikes-pentagon-records-civilian-deaths.html
Why are so many people willing to believe “Hamas uses human shields” without even a shred of evidence? How is acceptable to keep funding and arming Israel when there is no accountability for how they use those weapons?
Can you prove they are not? Like where in the Gaza is their military base e.g. ? If they aren’t mixed in Civilian where the hell are they? Also acts like murdering kids don’t really add them any credibility. To me it looks rather that their fighting tactics is trying to exploit the fact that enemy is not so willing to shoot at civilians as they are to shoot combatants.
can you prove that they’re not?
That’s not how this works dawg. You can’t commit war crimes and expect everyone to be cool with it if you’re not providing evidence to back your claims of “they took human shields, there’s nothing we could do”
If they’re not mixed in Civilian where the hell are they?
If they don’t know where Hamas is, if they don’t have evidence, then what is the plan? To level all of Palestine?
Remember when the US thought Iraq had WMDs? Woulda been nice if we like… had evidence first right? Coulda saved a lot of money and lives, no?
the enemy is not so willing to shoot civilians
Wtf are you talking about? You’re literally spreading the propaganda that has allowed Israel to kill 36x as many children as Palestinians have killed
They took the hostages and killed tons of people , it’s all over security cameras, there are witnesses, people from German and other countries recognized those hostages as their family member. Hammas posted video of dealing with those hostages. Hostages are women, kids and men. Are you saying that is not hiding behind the kids and women? I have tons of proofs to believe they do this.
You got only “Nana they are actually good people”
So that it actually how this not works… That’s why I gave you opportunity to present evidence that Hammas is not lowest scam in the region. You presented nothing.I have tons of proofs to believe they do this.
To be clear, I also think Hamas took hostages. I just don’t think most people consider that “being a human shield” unless there is imminent danger to the hostage taker.
You got only “Nana they are actually good people”
You realize that you can’t prove a negative empirically?
I’ll prove Hamas isn’t using human shields when you prove the tooth fairy don’t exist.
Hamas had not gone on slaughter spree on civilians
Israel has killed 22x more Palestinians than Isralies have died from all pro-Palestine groups https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties
And Germans caused WW2 that had mutliple times higher dead count than all Palestinians together. Yet I don’t see countries like Polland going terrorist against German civilians. The way you think is best, (kill as many children as brutal as possible) will only lead to more casaulties but it won’t make life any better for Palestina’s civilians.
Just look at this comment, Hamas clearly has the superior propaganda machine.
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From the article’s sub headline: ”Palestinians in Beit Hanoun were instructed by Israeli army to leave their homes and head for city centre. Hours later, the city centre was targeted”
What the actual fuck. Israel does many horrific stuff but this a new low.
Netanyahu said:" Those Who Attacked Israel Will Remember Israel’s Military Response For ‘Generations’ "
We are going to see some horrific war crimes in the weeks to come. And all of our countries are backing them up. Whole thing is fucked.
It’s sad but not surprising. Israel has a history of electing monsters.
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Wait they’ve done this before? WTF bruh.
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No no I know Israel is horrible that’s not news. I’m specifically talking about giving airstrike warnings with an order to evacuate somewhere and striking the evacuation location. That’s new to my knowledge.
Maybe the Palestinians should just leave?
Maybe the Israelis should since they forced the two state plan by civilian bombing campaigns and outright murder of political and religious leaders who had lived there for generations.
Aside from what others have said: they’re literally not allowed to. They have no freedom of movement whatsoever.
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Ah yes, 100 yr old maps are the definitive authority on who can live where. That’s also why Russia is owed Ukrainian land, right?
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Because Israel is fucking evil. Not Jews. Israel.
Why is Israel evil?
Extensive grooming by America.
Do Israelis have no agency in your mind?
Boiling it down to the system that has been in place for the last 30-40 years? Yes they do.
They take the money. They take the weapons. They are told to use the weapons. They use the weapons on Palestine.
Here, maybe I won’t get completely eviscerated for this one. Israel is Vader. The US is Palpatine.
Israel was never forced to turn evil, but the US has the carrot and Israel keeps reaching for it.
As a result, they have spent decades torturing and murdering innocent people. Small wonder a resistance formed.
Now flash back to Iraq. America made Osama Bin Laden a national hero. America’s existence is the result of guerrilla warfare. I was taught by American education that America did it first. I know we didn’t.
Anyway, America went into Iraq, helped install Saddam, rewarded Osama for being effective in installing Saddam, then Al Queda started doing things we didn’t like and we got stuck in war with Iraq for decades.
The parallels between America’s involvement with Iraq and America’s involvement with Israel are astounding to me.
Huh? Osama bin Laden was 11 when Saddam Hussein became vice president of Iraq. He was in university when the president resigned and Hussein became president and then was fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan during the early years of his rule. Al-Qaeda had no presence in Iraq before the US invasion - and didn’t even exist until a decade after Hussein became president.
I love you.
Let’s start here. You’re a great fact checker.
Osama Bin Laden was celebrated by the Regan administration for uprooting soviet interests in the region, no?
Extensive grooming by America.
They got the leader they voted for, that’s on them.
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The thing about that is there never was an era where war crimes were punished consistently.
In fact the modern post-WW2 era is about as good as it gets. And that is indeed not much.
Would you say that only the losers trend to be charged of war crimes. And probably some low-ranking war Victors.
I think generally it’s more akin to your average legal proceedings. The plebs who commit war crimes will face the full extent of the law, but when wealthy entities or nations do it they will often get away with it.
When it comes to charging the losers, even with the Nazis and the Nuremburg trials there was a significant amount of opposition from people within the Allied nations against prosecuting them. Actually, in an article about Ben Ferencz (the guy who worked hardest to make the Nuremburg trials happen) I read about a Nazi tried in the UK, Winston Churchill personally donated towards this Nazi’s defense and then had his execution commuted down to life, then later only ~20 years. By the end of the war Churchill was vehemently against the Soviets and chomping at the bit to invade them, I think this gave him sympathy towards Nazis who had been fighting Soviets. I’ve since been unable to find the guy’s name, though.
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The playbook is to just claim its propaganda. The internet is so supersaturated the average person can’t vet it as true or false.
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They were told to leave their homes and go to the city Centre. Then the city Centre was bombed.
Crosspost Comment from another related news article:
Don’t tell me that Hamas didn’t know how Israel would react. To keep the hate flowing is the goal of all extremists.
Edit: That Netanyahu openly admitted to support Hamas on some occasions, shows that Hamas AND Netanjahu want each other as permanent enemies: https://kbin.social/m/worldnews@lemmy.ml/t/526488/Anyone-who-wants-to-thwart-the-establishment-of-a-Palestinian
Since many of you seem to think of themselves as having viable solutions for the Israel/Palestine conflict- go ahead: Tell us how Israel should act after this Terrorist Attack.
Please refrain from bad faith arguments and stuff like „Israel should dissolve itself“ (because you and I know, that’s not going to happen)
There is no solution where Israel is allowed to continue forcing Palestinians from their homes. But hey, colonizers gotta colonize.
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If that happens the history books will refer to it as the Palestinian Holocaust
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We can talk about whataboutism
You’re not talking about whataboutisim you’re doing a whataboutisim. Israel is an apartheid state. If Israel want’s to stop the violence they can get their settlers out of the west bank. They can give back Gaza. Until they get the fuck out of Palestinian land I can’t blame the Palestinians for fighting to get them out.
If Israel want’s to stop the violence they can get their settlers out of the west bank.
Somewhat naive to think that will stop the violence. Israel was withdrawing through the 90s as part of the Oslo Process, which ended with the Second Initifada. There are substantial populations on both sides that want the other side gone from that land completely, and they will take any opportunity to further entrench themselves and stoke conflict.
Israel was withdrawing through the 90s as part of the Oslo Process, which ended with the Second Initifada.
Look at the Israeli terms of the Camp David summit and you’ll get why the Intifada happened. These are terms no self-respecting state would accept.
The US & Israelis were still hoping Arafat would come back to the table until the Intifada broke out. Peace takes time and some weren’t willing to give it the time it needed.
The US & Israelis were still hoping Arafat would come back to the table until the Intifada broke out.
Israel was pretty clear about what they wanted, and that was not a real, self-sufficient Palestinian state. If you need proof of that, take a look at the modern West Bank. Israel actively funded Hamas in the early 90s to weaken the Palestinian peace movement, and would later take many such actions to divide Palestinians and prevent peace from happening.
The last time the Israeli government seriously considered a two-state solution was in 1947.
You got a better solution?
Better? No. People much more experienced in negotiation and more knowledgeable of the history than you or I have tried for decades. The Arab League rejected the first offer, which remains to this day the best offer, in a UN vote. They never wanted Israel to exist and they still don’t, and yet it does. Compromise is not a solution here; the British knew that in 1948 when they refused to enforce the partition plan. I hope to be proven wrong some day, but from my perspective, the only solution is for one side to win.
One non-solution would be totalitarian secular governments like Egypt in both Palestine and Israel, and to immediately jail jihaadists and ultra-orthodox who make the slightest suggestion of violence. But instead there’s a flawed democracy in Israel where Likud relies on the violence against Israel to gain support and a jihaadist totalitarian government in Gaza.
I dk man, sounds like a cop out. I’m pretty sure if Israel just stopped doing war crimes hamas would eventually lose support in Palestine.
Laying back and embracing the final solution your proposing just doesn’t seem like the right call.
I can’t blame the Palestinians for fighting to get them out.
Oh is that what they were doing at the music festival?
You think you said something smart but that music festival took place on stolen land.
Doesn’t make it ok to kill civilians. But yes. That’s what they were doing. They were violently removing the guests of the colonist state invading them.
And speaking of killing civilians didn’t the government of Israel just tell a bunch of civilians where to seek shelter and then immediately bomb that shelter? How very honorable of them
It’s funny how everyone forgets that 20% of Israel’s population is Arab, the vast majority of which are Israeli citizens, and did not have their land stolen. Most of those that fled were listening to the propaganda of the Arab states that the Jews would commit genocide and were hopeful that the forces of Lebanon, Syria, Iraq and Egypt would commit massive genocide against the Jews, some were fleeing from retribution of their own violent pogroms. Does Israel have shitty politics? Yes. Does Israel need a constitution? Yes. Is it revealing that folks don’t know a damn thing about the actual history of the place when they say Israel is an apartheid state, as Palestinian leadership has, time and again, ruined hope for lasting peace. Fuck Israelis setting up illegal settlements. The fact that Netanyahu actively ignores this/encourages it is atrocious. But to pretend there is anything approaching political unity in Israel is a lie and a farce.
All I took from that was “the Arab states told Palestinians that [Israel] would commit genocide” and they were right.
They told them to go to a city and then bombed where Hamas was, which was also in that city.
I dk what you think you’re saying but you’re just admitting that Israel kills civilians on purpose. You’re dropping the veil of “human shields” and admitting that Israel is putting the civilians where they know Hamas is so they can use it as an excuse to kill both.
Well congratu-fucking-lations, you got the attention of big brother USA now by killing and kidnapping Americans. Hope y’all are prepared for the Gerald R Ford and her CSG, 'cause ready or not, here we come.
Lol America isn’t getting militarily involved in this one
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With that logic there is no solution and Israel is justified in depopulating Gaza entirely.
OK so just to be clear I said “Israel needs to stop taking what isn’t theirs” and you said “nah they should just kill everyone”. And people still don’t know which side is wrong here?
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In what world does someone saying “hey you can’t steal my house” justify you to murder them?
All I see are people referring to the fact that there are so many comments where people are “praising the attacks,” and “cheering on the slaughter,” yet I haven’t actually seen any. Only comments complaining about them.
I’ve seen people making nuanced points about the realities of the situation there prior to this attack. For maybe 60 years or so. But not a single comment celebrating the attack.
It’s almost as if there’s a coordinated attempt online to frame this situation a certain way, and they are straight up lying about “all of these people cheering the attack on.” Hmmm, wonder why anyone would do that?
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I see a whole lot of the Palestinian supporters cheering on the slaughter of Israeli citizens
Funny, the last guy who claimed this couldn’t produce any evidence, it’s almost like you’re gaslighting.
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I’m talking specifically here on this site. There are attempts to paint anybody critical of Israeli leadership as Hamas-supporting terrorist lovers. If you want to broaden the scope to take in the entire world, sure. What do you think of this?
“RAMALLAH, West Bank — The Israeli police said on Thursday that they were investigating a video that appeared to show young Jewish extremists celebrating the death of a Palestinian toddler in an arson attack last summer.”
Well, this seems like it’s an excellent example of the fundamental difference between Israel and Palestine.
More cynically speaking though, I find it probable that they were sentenced mostly because this became a high profile case. But at least they were.
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Maybe I wasn’t clear enough so I’ll spell it out for you - if you want to look for examples on both sides in the wider world, look and you’ll find them. Once more, I’m talking specifically about comments on this site.
How do I rename you to “bad summary bot”?
Edit: That Netanyahu openly admitted to support Hamas on some occasions, shows that Hamas AND Netanjahu want each other as permanent enemies: https://kbin.social/m/worldnews@lemmy.ml/t/526488/Anyone-who-wants-to-thwart-the-establishment-of-a-Palestinian
Since many of you seem to think of themselves as having viable solutions for the Israel/Palestine conflict- go ahead: Tell us how Israel should act after this Terrorist Attack.
You just hinted at the start of a possible solution. Israelis need to stop voting for warmongering criminals like Netanyahu who have zero desire to see peace. The people in Gaza? They don’t get to vote.
I’m actually quite positive right now in that regard, like I haven’t been since the fucker killed Rabin: The right-wing vision of security for Israel just blew up in the nation’s face, big time. The IDF was busy backing up settlers harassing Palestinians in the West Bank and thus not on the Gazan border, the whole “antagonise until they give up” approach binds resources needed to actually provide security. Also, Palestinians don’t show any signs of giving up.
If the left goes in with a “security, checkpoints, de-settlement and de-escalation” policy (of course in addition to lowering pudding prices) they might just take the Knesset wholesale.
Because one thing is rather curious about Israel: While the people pretty much bought the ring-wing security vision, that didn’t mean an overall shift to the right. And the seeds for the “we bred that monster” type insights are definitely already there in the Israeli press, even if formulated cautiously. Ultimately the whole current military situation has to be over with before actual politics happen.
Since Netanyahu and Hamas are the principal belligerents, I say send in a few SEALs to arrest them, and make them do “Hell in a Cell” in the middle of the desert, till they all die of exposure.
I’m aware this won’t happen, but that seems to be the immediate solution here, since as you so rightly pointed out, the leadership on both sides just wants the conflict to continue ad infinitum
Yeah Hamas and Israel are both insane, don’t see a solution that doesn’t involve giving Palestine land back and people electing moderate governments, but none of the foreign interests want that and neither do influential domestic factions. The most predictable blowback ever.
Here’s a fun whataboutist comparison: Two countries are currently in the efforts of stealing the territory of their neighbors, one though apartheid regime and slow claims to land, the other through a “military exercise.” Many in the west cheer on the deaths of Russian civilians because they are allegedly complicit in the war, they’re called “orks.” In Israel’s case their civilians are viewed as innocent victims, what is the difference? I think there are some valid differences but it does highlight some hypocrisy. I don’t think any civilian deaths are justified in these conflicts, whether committed by either side.
What Russian civilians are being killed??
Many in the west cheer on the deaths of Russian civilians because they are allegedly complicit in the war, they’re called “orks.”
There’s a detail here that is wrong. “Orcs” is the name that has been given to the occupying Russian soldiers in Ukraine, for obvious reasons. Not civilians.
I don’t really know anything about the situation beyond the 10 minute explainer I watched on youtube.
It’s practically a holy war that’s raged for millennia though - I don’t think there are “solutions”, I think the goal is just to dial back the ferocity of the feud a few notches.
Both sides should start by not doing war crimes.
That 10 minute explainer did you a disservice I think. That holy war concept is a really vague way of describing why there has been conflict in the region for that breadth of time. But it doesnt really address the Israel-Palestinian conflict so much as it provides a smokescreen for the last 100 years of political maneuvers by the various Allied powers of WW1 and WW2 with the British and French first, then America since.
Don’t tell me that Hamas didn’t know how Israel would react.
Literally nobody told you that. I guarantee all you’ve seen up to this point are people saying exactly what you’re saying.
🦜
Bro Israelis historically were the first to bomb civilian targets, if we’re going to analyze it you have to start before the ottoman empire.
They can’t solve this problem themselves. The UN has to step in as per my other comment. The no-state solution.
Whose army is going to disarm them? You have a lot of faith in the U.N here to not fuck this up even worse than it is now
Worse than deliberately cutting off an entire population’s water supply? As to which army, as always a multinational taskforce. Yes the UN is not perfect but just letting them commit atrocities over and over isn’t exactly working out.
Except every time the UN attempts to even condemn Israel’s illegal settlements and war crimes, the US vetoes it. Because we have that power for some reason.
I think all the Palestinians should move to Iran.
Oh yeah? Who is going to pay for that?
Mexico
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“Hey, we took a bunch of your land and we have repeatedly violated our previous agreements not to take more, but hey, take this shitty land in return for a bunch of concessions from your side. We promise that this time we won’t violate our agreement. Promise!”
Another paraphrase: You’re one of two brothers. Shortly after your father’s death, your brother gains access to your elderly father’s bank account and plunders it. You take them to court to seek justice, but the judge is a friend of your sister-in-law. Despite the evidence being overwhelmingly in your favor, the judge rules against you. You appeal to a higher court and the case is pending. Your brother approaches you and offers you 10% of the money but you must sign away your rights to inherit any more of the money and the rest of the estate.
It’s just wild: if you change the context of the narrative, almost any reasonable person would say one party is absolutely the aggressor, but a bunch of propagandists like you have pushed an alternative narrative that the no-critical-thinking crowd eats right up.
It’s almost as if there are good reasons why they haven’t made peace yet. Dare I suggest that those reasons are beyond the fixing skills of internet forum users.
Naah, just kidding. We can fix this.
You’re implying Palestinians are violent by nature. That’s racist as fuck, dude.
Here is a list of peace offers which would grant the Palestinians a country of their own, they refused all of them
1937 - Peel commission, rejected
1947 - Partition resolution, rejected
2000 - Camp David, rejected
2001 - Taba, rejected. Arafat starts the second intifada and a year later changes his mind.
2008 - Olmert offer, rejected
Hamas have tried to agree to boundaries Despite media attempts to portray it as a new Hamas charter, it is not. The new ‘policy document’ accepts the creation of a Palestinian state in 1967 borders, but still rejects Israel and claims its territory. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39775103
Here are some other noteworthy peace meeting or proposals from Israel to the rest if the Arab world, which were rejected
1919: Arabs of Palestine refused nominate representatives to the Paris Peace Conference.
1920: San Remo conference decisions, rejected.
1922: League of Nations decisions, rejected.
1937: Peel Commission partition proposal, rejected.
1938: Woodhead partition proposal, rejected
1947: UN General Assembly partition proposal (UNGAR 181), rejected.
1949: Israel’s outstretched hand for peace (UNGAR 194), rejected.
1967: Israel’s outstretched hand for peace (UNSCR 242), rejected.
1978: Begin/Sa’adat peace proposal, rejected (except for Egypt).
1994: Rabin/Hussein peace agreement, rejected by the rest of the Arab League (except for Egypt).
1995: Rabin’s Contour-for-Peace, rejected.
2000: Barak/Clinton peace offer, rejected.
2001: Barak’s offer at Taba, rejected.
2005: Sharon’s peace gesture, withdrawal from Gaza, rejected.
2008: Olmert/Bush peace offer, rejected.
2009 to 2021: Netanyahu’s repeated invitations to peace talks, rejected.
2014: Kerry’s Contour-for-Peace, rejected.
Not gonna link Trump’s imbecilic peace plan as an example.
Here is a list of peace offers the Palestinians offered to Israel -
None
Why would they ever accept any “offer” to have their homes and land taken away?
I tried finding that video - but I cannot find it in the article. Could you provide a link?
I am sorry friend, the video seems to have been removed.
I can offer you a link to the detailed 2008 happenings.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli–Palestinian_peace_process#Israeli–Palestinian_talks_in_2007_and_2008
Look at the Native Americans for an example of a colonized population that accepted the terms of their colonizers.
Still alive???
Also how is it comonization? According to both religions both own the land. One party accepts the other while the other wants to kill all jews because of my god is bigger.
I will never accept antisemitism.
The general take on Lemmy is: it’s okay for Palestinians to become extremists after decades of violence, but for Israelis? no no no sir.
The tankies are very noticable right now
Has it ever occurred to you some people are independent and therefore don’t always subscribe to a single tribe?
Probably not, because you’re a tribalist projecting your tribalism onto literally everyone else.
In your mind, people are with you or against you. There is no nuance.
Thats like the complete opposite of what I am like lol
Your previous comment does not reflect that.
Because I notice tankies? okay…
In your mind, people are with you or against you. There is no nuance.
Might wanna brush up on your reading comprehension.
Thank you for being honest and admitting that Israel has not been willing to even come to the table for 18 years
What a wierd take from that information.
Blatant lying from hassanmckusick@lemmy.discothe.quest.
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According to one religious book it is and according to another religious book it isnt.
This argument is boring. depending on how far back in time we go it is or isn’t.Religion is an ongoing lie.
Not the argument here. Good for you for being atheist but Jews and Muslims aren’t. For them it isn’t just a lie. And their beliefs are under protection of almost every developing country so we also have to take in account that their beliefs in this are valid.
I don’t see any use in them either, but religion is the cause for this 120 year war.
Being contrarian doesn’t solve this.
Islam is based on Judaism. So it’s Jewish land according to both these books
No, it’s not. Both are based in the middle East and on Abraham, but they differ wildly.
And Palestine is not? What are you on about? Same Brits who gave Palestine their country, decided to give Jews theirs.
A substantial portion of the 20% of Israel’s population that are Arab Israeli citizens would beg to differ. They have legit gripes with how the State operates, but they want jack shit to do with Palestine.
Hamas are animals. Abducting children and internationals. These last few days have shown they do not deserve sympathy. Watching Palestinians cheer when rockets get launched just proves my point.
So instead you are cheering when civilians on the other side are being killed. Great logic. I hope you feel morally superior and can sleep better at night.
Where did he cheer that Palestinian civilians got killed?
One simple rule to achieve peace and stability is diplomatic talk. You don’t use violence as answer.
Attacking civilians is also plain and simple terrorism. Hamas proved with this action they are not worth more than terrorists.
Attacking civilians is also plain and simple terrorism
So we’re in agreement that this is essentially two terrorist states fighting each other? And the biggest losers in all of this will be the innocent Israeli and Palestinian citizens who just want to live their lives in peace. Meanwhile Hamas and the Israeli state get to go back and forth playing the their sick game of race-to-the-bottom-of-the-morality-barrel trying to blow each other to smithereens.
If you’re 93 today, then you were about 18 years old when Israel became an autonomous nation (in 1948). Before that time, the Jews in the area were simply terrorists without a state.
I’m glad you know that Israel was formed in 1948 but your grasp on the rest of the history is poor.
Here’s your chance to tell me the real history, then.
I wouldn’t call it a “real” history, just a richer history that leads to a more nuanced understanding of the situation, starting with the Ottoman Empire’s tax reform efforts prior to WWI leading to the fellahin legally conveying their land to town leaders to avoid taxation, the descendants of said leaders considering themselves as landed gentry and who had little connection to the land, in fact most of them were living the high life in Beirut and who were more than happy to sell land to Jews. Or the state of Arab intellectual thought as it transitioned from pan-arabism to regional nationalism. Or the role the Arab League played in manipulating many Palestinians to act against their interests in the leadup to and during the 1948-1949 war (Arabs that ignored the Arab League are now, by and large, Israeli citizens, though they have legit gripes and deserve a fair constitutional government that protects them from the vageries of the volatile Israeli political process). Or how Arab nations allowed/encouraged pogroms to occur against their Jewish residents both before and after the creation of the State of Israel, persecution that (surprise surprise) led Arabic-speaking Jews to flee to the mandate/Israel. I’m NOT saying that Israel did no wrong. I’m just irritated as fuck by Israeli AND Palestinian apologists that ignore the role their side played in making the situation what it is today.
You are saying that the post holocaust Jews were terrorists? Wtf?
I was talking about before that, but in general, I’ll just say that whatever the truth is, you should simply accept as the truth. There were certainly refugees from the holocaust who became literal terrorists, and the idea that your faux outrage is more important than truth is repugnant.
Feel terror, make counter terror…
Wait, isn’t this a popular valve game that is about to get a 3?
No Valve game will ever get a 3
Yup.
But don’t forget. They are deploying 1 time use type armament, so they are also getting subsidized to keep weapon makers profitable.
One simple rule to achieve peace and stability is diplomatic talk.
Yeah if it was that simple the region would have peace already. Israel has never seriously considered peace as anything than something to avoid. See: How they funded Hamas in the 90s to take steam out of the Palestinian peace movement.
Hamas didnt even exist when Israel funded Mosques and Charity work.
You think that’s going to make a difference? People don’t even take a moment to parse that fully 20% of Israeli citizens are Arab, that those Arabs didn’t have their land stolen, and that the reason they are in Israel is because they didn’t listen to the propaganda of the Arab League that they needed to flee because Israel was going to kill them all/make it more convenient for the Arab League to kill all the Jews. No one gives a fuck about actual rich history, the role Arabs played in fucking over their own ethnic group time and again, or that the vast majority of Arab Israelis want fuck-all to do with Palestine except occasionally visit extended family members and then GTFO of the corrupt hellhole that is Gaza (while having legit gripes with how the Israeli state operates).
they didn’t listen to the propaganda of the Arab League that they needed to flee because Israel was going to kill them all
Doesn’t seem like they were wrong…
You should look up Benny Morris (an Israeli Zionist historian)'s four-stage analysis of the Palestinian diaspora before saying shit like this.
I don’t really want to comment on that. I feel like I am not qualified to judge about the complex problems in this region.
I see a reflex by some people pointing out that Palestinians are victims. But that does justify to take revenge in this way. This action will prolonge the hatred on both side and the entire situation even further. No one should support Hamas in this case.
A popular myth, but a myth nonetheless.
In 2014, Israel invaded Gaza and more than 2000 people were killed. Did Israel achieve anything other than radicalising more the local population, I would say no? Violence is never the answer or a recipe for long lasting peace.
Do you think that if Israel was treating Palestinians better and not causing a humanitarian crisis, the support for Hamas would be so strong?
Just for perspective, the Hamas army is around 30.000, while the Gaza strip population is around 2,3 million. So that’s 1.3% while people who depend on humanitarian aid in the Gaza strip are 80% and probably this percentage would increase even further. So that’s 1.7Mln people. Not to mention that 123.000 people have been displaced. Not to mention that they don’t have access to clean drinking water, soon would run out of electricity and gas. So I don’t know for you but my mind has trouble trying to process the scale of this humanitarian catastrophe.
Cutting off food, water and electricity for 2.3 million people.
I wonder if people notice the irony of Israel recreating the Warsaw ghetto.
So that justifies deliberately targeting civilians? Israel is no better than Hamas.
Yeah, lots of Palestinian music festivals attacked recently, eh?
They have been horrifically oppressed for decades.
They have lived in constant fight for your life squalor while America keeps siphoning money and weapons to Israel, who, in turn, simply tortures Palestine.
I dont condone it, but I can’t bring myself to fake outrage or surprise.
America caused this.
America needs to stop funding terrorists (Israel). It only breeds more terrorists (Hamas).
And at the end of the day, that was the point.
There is another armed conflict for American military contractors to cash in on.
America needs to stop funding terrorists (Israel). It only breeds more terrorists (Hamas).
Add to your list that Israel actively funded Hamas in the 90s to take the steam out of the Palestinian peace movement.
If the same kind of pressure being put on Hamas was put on the Israeli authorities, the problem with Palestine would’ve been over long ago, just like Appartheid in South Africa has made to end by international pressure, not because the assholes in power in SA woke up one day and decided to the do the morally right thing.
As long as Israel gets to keep its boot on the necks of Palestinians (worse, activelly helped to do so), there will always be people who are born and grow with nothing to lose for whom even an organisation internationally treated as a terrorist organisation is still a step up.
I totally agree it’s the US who have maintained this situation, and I also want to add Europe, whose leaders have sided with Israel or assumed the kind of “neutrality” that “peace loving” “tankies” assume with regards to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine (i.e. not wanting to help Ukraine).
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I’m well aware of Arab Israelis, mainly because uniquelly in the World, Israel has separated nationality from citizenship, and has put most rights under citizenship, not nationality.
Israeli Arabs are Israeli nationals with under that country’s system Arab Citizenship, whilst Israeli Jews are Israeli nationals with Jewish Citizenship.
Israel grants different rights to different citizenships, so Israeli Arabs, for example, require authorization to go live in certain places and can legally be kicked out of their houses (as happens quite regularly in the Old City of Jerusalem), unlike Israeli Jews.
Still, it’s better to get the second-class citizen treatment that the State of Israel gives to Israeli Arabs than the treatment it gives to prisioners in Israel’s main prison, Gaza.
What are you insinuating?
As far as I know Palestinians have rejected every Offer they have received and only went for the whole destruction of Israel.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
I’m gonna take half your house and if you don’t like it I’ll just try to kill you (royal you this is not a threat). On top of that I’m not just taking half your house down the middle. I’m taking the master bathroom, the en-suite, the kitchen, the study… actually I’m taking both bathrooms you can shit in the garage where you sleep from now on, also you can have the shed I guess. But you’re not allowed in the yard so you can’t actually go to the shed, just look at it and know that it’s yours. I promise I won’t store my tools in there when you’re not looking.
What’s that? You want a hose to drink from the garden spigot? No, I’ve decided that it’s in appropriate for you to have your own access to water. You can ask me for a cup when you’re thirsty.
Btw my cousin is moving in next week so you’re gonna have to move your shit to the left side of the garage
Have you seen what was in many of those offers? “How about we only steal this much of your land? How about that?”
Your worldview is so fucked up. The reason Israel gets support is because if it didn’t, the surrounding Arab nations would have wiped it out, as they have said multiple times.
It’s like a bully attacks a little kid, and the little kid’s older brother shows up to defend him, and then you saying, “the older brother caused this because he wouldn’t let the bully beat up that little kid!”
You’ve got it all backwards man. Get help.
When the little brother starts slaughtering all of the innocent people who “are totally all bullies” and bombing their homes with impunity for 40 years with virtually no consequence, somewhere over those 40 years, the brothers became the bullies in the neighborhood.
Start using your brain big boy.
Stop regurgitating what Fox tells you to.
Here is a list of peace offers which would grant the Palestinians a country of their own, they refused all of them
1937 - Peel commission, rejected
1947 - Partition resolution, rejected
2000 - Camp David, rejected
2001 - Taba, rejected. Arafat starts the second intifada and a year later changes his mind.
2008 - Olmert offer, rejected
Here’s a video (in the article) where the chief palestinian negotiator explains what was offered in 2008. Hamas have tried to agree to boundaries Despite media attempts to portray it as a new Hamas charter, it is not. The new ‘policy document’ accepts the creation of a Palestinian state in 1967 borders, but still rejects Israel and claims its territory. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-39775103
Here are some other noteworthy peace meeting or proposals from Israel to the rest if the Arab world, which were rejected
1919: Arabs of Palestine refused nominate representatives to the Paris Peace Conference.
1920: San Remo conference decisions, rejected.
1922: League of Nations decisions, rejected.
1937: Peel Commission partition proposal, rejected.
1938: Woodhead partition proposal, rejected
1947: UN General Assembly partition proposal (UNGAR 181), rejected.
1949: Israel’s outstretched hand for peace (UNGAR 194), rejected.
1967: Israel’s outstretched hand for peace (UNSCR 242), rejected.
1978: Begin/Sa’adat peace proposal, rejected (except for Egypt).
1994: Rabin/Hussein peace agreement, rejected by the rest of the Arab League (except for Egypt).
1995: Rabin’s Contour-for-Peace, rejected.
2000: Barak/Clinton peace offer, rejected.
2001: Barak’s offer at Taba, rejected.
2005: Sharon’s peace gesture, withdrawal from Gaza, rejected.
2008: Olmert/Bush peace offer, rejected.
2009 to 2021: Netanyahu’s repeated invitations to peace talks, rejected.
2014: Kerry’s Contour-for-Peace, rejected.
Not gonna link Trump’s imbecilic peace plan as an example.
Here is a list of peace offers the Palestinians offered to Israel -
None
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It’s not Palestinian either by that logic.
It is their land. They are about to prove that fact again over the coming months. Land belongs to the Earth. What society controls said land is up to the people’s will. Hamas ended its own life on Saturday.
If you treat a bunch of people like animals for long enough, what do you think will happen?
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