• FlowVoid@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    2
    arrow-down
    2
    ·
    edit-2
    6 months ago

    There is no military goal that justifies killing “any amount” of civilians. All of them have limits, which are based on military capabilities.

    • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldM
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      3
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      6 months ago

      Okay, what is the limit of children the IDF should be able to kill before it is no longer justified? Give me a number.

      • FlowVoid@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        arrow-down
        4
        ·
        edit-2
        6 months ago

        In general, civilian-combatant casualty ratios range from 1:1 to 5:1. They tend to be higher in urban settings like Gaza. The Chechen wars were closer to 7-10:1

        The US estimates 15,000 combatants have been killed in Gaza. If so, we would consider 15,000 to 75,000 civilian deaths to be normal at this point.

        • livus@kbin.social
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          3
          ·
          edit-2
          6 months ago

          Anyone reading along in this thread should probably check the veracity of these claimed ratios. Wikipedia has an okay overview.

          It’s also worth noting that the Russian wars in Chechnya were particularly notable for their brutal war crimes.

          @FlyingSquid

          • FlowVoid@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            3
            arrow-down
            2
            ·
            edit-2
            6 months ago

            I’ll save you the effort:

            • Mexican American War, 1:1
            • WW1, 1:1
            • WW2, between 3:2 and 2:1
            • Korean War, 3:1
            • Vietnam War, between 1:3 and 2:1
            • Lebanon War, between 4:1 and 6:1
            • Chechen Wars, 10:1 (first), 4:1 (second), 7.6:1 (overall)
            • Yugoslav War: between 1:10 and 10:1
            • Iraq War: between 1:2 and 3:1
            • Mosul: between 0.7:1 and 1.5:1

            If there are 15,000 combatants among the 35,000 dead in Gaza, then this war stands at 1.3:1

        • Natanael@slrpnk.net
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          3
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          6 months ago

          Israel themselves said they would accept 15 dead civilians for low level Hamas staff and 100+ for higher ranking ones.

          And they overshoot hard.

          IDF count every male above 16 as Hamas by default. You’re gonna get a lot of false positives that way

          • FlowVoid@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            2
            arrow-down
            2
            ·
            edit-2
            6 months ago

            I consider all civilians to be equal, so I’m not going to separate children for the same reason I’m not going to separate Palestinian Christians, mothers, teachers, or retirees.

            • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldM
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              2
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              6 months ago

              Okay, let me put it this way- are you so firm in your conviction that all the child deaths in Gaza so far have been justified that you would be willing to say that to the parents of a dead child? Because I’m willing to find some so that you can tell them that yourself. I bet they’d even be willing to get on video chat with you so you can tell them, to their faces, that their child’s death was justifiable.

              So, are you willing to do that? Tell grieving parents that their child’s death was justifiable because Israel is accomplishing its military objectives?

              • FlowVoid@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                2
                arrow-down
                3
                ·
                edit-2
                6 months ago

                Believing something is true does not mean that you should tell someone, especially someone in grief.

                If someone’s husband just died, would you be willing to say, “You should know that he was cheating on you for years”?

                If someone’s mother just died, would you be willing to say, “I really think you should have spent more time with her in her final days”?

                If someone’s child commits suicide, would you be willing to say, “You could have prevented this if you had bothered to pay attention to the warning signs”?

                Even if all these things are 100% true, I think it would be monstrous to blurt them out.

                Sometimes compassion means respecting that people are not always ready to hear the truth.

                • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldM
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  4
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  6 months ago

                  Okay, so you would be willing to tell them that in a year, correct? You gave them time to grieve, so they would be ready to hear the truth.

                  Shall we make an appointment in one years’ time for you to tell the parents of a dead Palestinian child that their child’s death was justified so that Israel could meet their military objectives?

                  • FlowVoid@lemmy.world
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    2
                    arrow-down
                    3
                    ·
                    6 months ago

                    Some people will never be ready.

                    One year later, ten years later, a million years later: I would never say “You could have prevented your child’s death”.

                    Most people do not want to debate the circumstances of their child’s death, ever. They often only want reassurance that it’s part of god’s plan. And if that’s all they want, then that’s all I will ever say about it (even though I’m not exactly religious).