Khelif and another boxer, featherweight Lin Yu-Ting of Chinese Taipei, have been fighting under a cloud in France after the Algerian’s opening victory over Angela Carini, who quit after 46 seconds.
Looking at the other comments, you are clearly not here to discuss, but I will make a good faith attempt and play devil’s advocate.
The difference between intersex and other conditions you mentioned is that it blurs the lines of a specific set of parameters that are specifically used to create categories between sports. Men and women are not fighting each other for more than anagraphic reasons (I hope we can all agree on this), and if a condition invalidates that distinction (I.e. gives some advantages that men have over a women), then it breaks the boundary of such categories in a similar way as it would be having someone from a heavier category fight in a lighter one (BTW, this is routinely done by having athletes go in terrible dehydration regimes).
Now this has nothing to do with this specific case, as there is no any objective proof for any of this, nor that she is intersex nor that she does have any advantage, but it’s purely a way to frame the answer to the question “what’s the difference between having scoliosis and being intersex”.
Edit:
I will add one more thing, comparing a sprinter to a long-distance swimmer is exactly like comparing someone who runs 100m with those who run marathons. Clearly there is an advantage, considering that Katie Ledecky is an absolute monster, but she would have beaten the 3 worse times only that men did in this Olympics, and that she would have been almost a minute behind the winner, meaning almost 2 full lengths. Of course men have an advantage…also if you took the time from https://www.worldaquatics.com/athletes/1001621/michael-phelps, you probably have seen that he was 15 at the time…
The thing is, other hormones can give advantages too. That people put so much stock into testosterone alone is bad science. That intersex conditions that involve testosterone are so hated is transphobia. Women should be in their neat little boxes and men in theirs and any anatomy that changes that is taboo and should be banned. Like where should an intersex fighter compete? If this woman was intersex and had LOCAH or PCOS or other conditions, should she not be allowed in any division of Olympics?
Why don’t we have testosterone classes instead of (or in addition to) weight classes, if it matters so much? All athletes with the same level of testosterone can compete, just like athletes that weigh the same compete against each other. Why dont we organize it that way instead? Isn’t that more exact and fair?
I didn’t mention testosterone at all. I am not a specialist and I mostly don’t care about the details. I specifically talked in functional terms: if whatever condition gives you some advantages that men have, then it breaks the categories that are established. In this way, that condition would be different from -say- having huge feet like Phelps, even if they give you an advantage, because there are no categories based on foot size in swimming.
Everything else is an interesting hypothetical discussion, and maybe one day categories will be based on more parameters. Fact is, today they are like this, rough and using proxies such as gender and weight to make fights that are more-or-less fair.
Well, everyone else here is specifically talking about testosterone. That’s the “problematic” chemical. It’s relevant because it’s a normal endogenous chemical we make and some women naturally make more. It can help with more muscle mass and bone density. That it’s testosterone is entirely relevant.
That’s like speaking on Gaza and saying “it doesn’t matter where it is.” Like yes it absolutely matters. The context and specifics matter when discussing complicated topics.
All athletes that beat other athletes have a presumed physical advantage. A physical advantage isn’t an issue. It’s testosterone that’s the issue according to the people bitching about it.
A physical advantage isn’t an issue. It’s testosterone that’s the issue according to the people bitching about it.
No, it’s a physical advantages that derive from a condition that renders certain parameters (whatever they are) similar to stronger categories (in this case, men).
If it’s just testosterone or a combination of hormones and other things it doesn’t matter in the perspective of the discussion I was trying to have (which answered your question, by the way)…
So why would intersex get a special category that isn’t allowed?
But that’s literally every condition. Thats everything a top physical athlete has - their entire physique is a physical advantage over others. How is it different than say, Michael Phelps producing less lactic acid which allows him to have greater endurance? Why is lactic acid okay to be different with, but not testosterone? Both are genetic abnormalities that confer an advantage.
The reason is that they can’t be transphobic about lactic acid.
So why men and women should compete separately?
If you think they don’t, then fine.
If you think the do, then the reason pretty much is “because men have physical advantages and make the competition unfair or even impossible for women”. What gives this advantage is the kind of stuff that I am talking about.
Is lactic acid production a property that is advantageous to men (I don’t think it is, just making an example)? Then if you have the lactic acid production of men, you effectively have some of the advantages that men have over women, hence competing against women creates question. This is not binary, it’s a scale, and at some point there is a limit that is fixed in the rules.
I will answer your question once again: because there are categories based on gender, there are not based on lactic acid production.
Testosterone is one of the advantages that men have over women, and in fact there is a limit.
You specifically ignored my argument, which can be summed up like this: categories for sport are fairly arbitrary, but it’s what is currently used. If you have properties of a stronger category, it is unfair for those of the category you compete in. Yes, there are other N genetic advantages within that category, but since they are not parameters that are used to slice competition, they are not addressed. I didn’t make the rules and frankly I don’t care. If in the future we are going to have height and feet size categories for swimming, with lactic acid production, and tens more, I honestly would have no problem. Today genders are used in most of the sports because it’s a simple and effective proxy to a bunch of advantages.
There are sports that are designed in a way that give estrogen dominant people advantages. Testosterone isn’t an advantage for every sport, and Testosterone in isolation isn’t an “advantage men have over women,” because it comes with a cost including lower lifespan. Cool that you think that way?
The way many sports are designed gives testosterone dominant people an advantage. That’s patriarchy for ya.
Height isn’t that important for swimming or even running - ShaCarri is like 5’1".
Lactic acid is not related to gender, that’s my point. But you clearly believe in gender determinism and think sex chromosomes make up a huge part of genetic makeup when it is quite tiny. Women and men have more in common than we have different.
My criticism is that categories based on gender are unscientific. Which you agree with but say you can’t be bothered with the details so its good enough. Well, some of us are smart enough to actually analyze this and know enough about medicine to criticize the heuristic of Testosterone as a metric for athletic competitions when there’s more involved than just T.
because it comes with a cost including lower lifespan
How is this relevant when you look at advantages in a single competition? This is not a “is it good in life”-situation.
Height isn’t that important for swimming or even running
hence it doesn’t have a separate category? BTW, swimmers are taller than average, because being tall is generally ad advantage. It’s one of many factors, but it’s there.
The way many sports are designed gives testosterone dominant people an advantage. That’s patriarchy for ya.
This seems…unlikely. I would say that combat sports have not been “designed” with this in mind, and many other sports are done in the only way they could: swim as fast as you can, run as fast as you can, jump as high/far/etc. as you can.
Lactic acid is not related to gender, that’s my point.
Then you should understand my answer: it doesn’t break the boundary of established categories.
But you clearly believe in gender determinism and think sex chromosomes make up a huge part of genetic makeup when it is quite tiny.
Are you a medium? Do you read my mind on arbitrary topics? Can you give me 6 numbers for next lottery?
Jokes aside, I didn’t talk about chromosomes, I didn’t talk about testosterone (only once you brought it up), I specifically referred to functional difference, whatever the origin, and also mentioned that the reality is not so easy (not binary).
My criticism is that categories based on gender are unscientific.
Perfect, this is a completely separate discussion, one I might agree with even. I wouldn’t know how to make it better, it’s not my area of expertise. What I know is that in many sports women holding record would barely qualify if they were to compete against males, and I think that would not be fun nor fair for anybody. I also think that in combat sports that would be potentially dangerous. Happy to see alternatives in the future.
I’ve already provided multiple examples where the physical advantages, resulting from a neurochemical anomaly, exist and no one had an issue. Why is testosterone special? And if testosterone ISN’T special, then why aren’t they testing for other enodgenous neurochemicals like lactic acid and banning based on that? Why doesn’t this group of lactic acid anomalies get kicked out and refused placement?
Your argument is that intersex conditions blur boundaries for sex in sports. My argument is that these categories are arbitrary and I’m explaining why.
You: the color orange messes with the boundaries we have in place for red and yellow! It can’t be involved!
Me: the boundary for yellow and red is arbitrary and visible light exists on a continuum anyway!
Me: the boundary for yellow and red is arbitrary and visible light exists on a continuum anyway!
Actually me:
This is not binary, it’s a scale, and at some point there is a limit that is fixed in the rules.
I fully recognize that this is arbitrary, I fully recognize that any “limit” is somewhat arbitrary. The only difference is that I acknowledge that sex is a “good enough” proxy for now.
I still don’t understand how would you avoid that women will never see a medal again in any combat sport, athletics, swimming, tennis and many other sports if you stop using sex as a category. What categories would you use, and are they pragmatic enough that they can be implemented easily?
Looking at the other comments, you are clearly not here to discuss, but I will make a good faith attempt and play devil’s advocate.
The difference between intersex and other conditions you mentioned is that it blurs the lines of a specific set of parameters that are specifically used to create categories between sports. Men and women are not fighting each other for more than anagraphic reasons (I hope we can all agree on this), and if a condition invalidates that distinction (I.e. gives some advantages that men have over a women), then it breaks the boundary of such categories in a similar way as it would be having someone from a heavier category fight in a lighter one (BTW, this is routinely done by having athletes go in terrible dehydration regimes).
Now this has nothing to do with this specific case, as there is no any objective proof for any of this, nor that she is intersex nor that she does have any advantage, but it’s purely a way to frame the answer to the question “what’s the difference between having scoliosis and being intersex”.
Edit:
I will add one more thing, comparing a sprinter to a long-distance swimmer is exactly like comparing someone who runs 100m with those who run marathons. Clearly there is an advantage, considering that Katie Ledecky is an absolute monster, but she would have beaten the 3 worse times only that men did in this Olympics, and that she would have been almost a minute behind the winner, meaning almost 2 full lengths. Of course men have an advantage…also if you took the time from https://www.worldaquatics.com/athletes/1001621/michael-phelps, you probably have seen that he was 15 at the time…
The thing is, other hormones can give advantages too. That people put so much stock into testosterone alone is bad science. That intersex conditions that involve testosterone are so hated is transphobia. Women should be in their neat little boxes and men in theirs and any anatomy that changes that is taboo and should be banned. Like where should an intersex fighter compete? If this woman was intersex and had LOCAH or PCOS or other conditions, should she not be allowed in any division of Olympics?
Why don’t we have testosterone classes instead of (or in addition to) weight classes, if it matters so much? All athletes with the same level of testosterone can compete, just like athletes that weigh the same compete against each other. Why dont we organize it that way instead? Isn’t that more exact and fair?
I didn’t mention testosterone at all. I am not a specialist and I mostly don’t care about the details. I specifically talked in functional terms: if whatever condition gives you some advantages that men have, then it breaks the categories that are established. In this way, that condition would be different from -say- having huge feet like Phelps, even if they give you an advantage, because there are no categories based on foot size in swimming.
Everything else is an interesting hypothetical discussion, and maybe one day categories will be based on more parameters. Fact is, today they are like this, rough and using proxies such as gender and weight to make fights that are more-or-less fair.
Well, everyone else here is specifically talking about testosterone. That’s the “problematic” chemical. It’s relevant because it’s a normal endogenous chemical we make and some women naturally make more. It can help with more muscle mass and bone density. That it’s testosterone is entirely relevant.
That’s like speaking on Gaza and saying “it doesn’t matter where it is.” Like yes it absolutely matters. The context and specifics matter when discussing complicated topics.
All athletes that beat other athletes have a presumed physical advantage. A physical advantage isn’t an issue. It’s testosterone that’s the issue according to the people bitching about it.
No, it’s a physical advantages that derive from a condition that renders certain parameters (whatever they are) similar to stronger categories (in this case, men).
If it’s just testosterone or a combination of hormones and other things it doesn’t matter in the perspective of the discussion I was trying to have (which answered your question, by the way)…
But that’s literally every condition. Thats everything a top physical athlete has - their entire physique is a physical advantage over others. How is it different than say, Michael Phelps producing less lactic acid which allows him to have greater endurance? Why is lactic acid okay to be different with, but not testosterone? Both are genetic abnormalities that confer an advantage.
The reason is that they can’t be transphobic about lactic acid.
So why men and women should compete separately? If you think they don’t, then fine. If you think the do, then the reason pretty much is “because men have physical advantages and make the competition unfair or even impossible for women”. What gives this advantage is the kind of stuff that I am talking about.
Is lactic acid production a property that is advantageous to men (I don’t think it is, just making an example)? Then if you have the lactic acid production of men, you effectively have some of the advantages that men have over women, hence competing against women creates question. This is not binary, it’s a scale, and at some point there is a limit that is fixed in the rules.
I will answer your question once again: because there are categories based on gender, there are not based on lactic acid production. Testosterone is one of the advantages that men have over women, and in fact there is a limit.
You specifically ignored my argument, which can be summed up like this: categories for sport are fairly arbitrary, but it’s what is currently used. If you have properties of a stronger category, it is unfair for those of the category you compete in. Yes, there are other N genetic advantages within that category, but since they are not parameters that are used to slice competition, they are not addressed. I didn’t make the rules and frankly I don’t care. If in the future we are going to have height and feet size categories for swimming, with lactic acid production, and tens more, I honestly would have no problem. Today genders are used in most of the sports because it’s a simple and effective proxy to a bunch of advantages.
There are sports that are designed in a way that give estrogen dominant people advantages. Testosterone isn’t an advantage for every sport, and Testosterone in isolation isn’t an “advantage men have over women,” because it comes with a cost including lower lifespan. Cool that you think that way?
The way many sports are designed gives testosterone dominant people an advantage. That’s patriarchy for ya.
Height isn’t that important for swimming or even running - ShaCarri is like 5’1".
Lactic acid is not related to gender, that’s my point. But you clearly believe in gender determinism and think sex chromosomes make up a huge part of genetic makeup when it is quite tiny. Women and men have more in common than we have different.
My criticism is that categories based on gender are unscientific. Which you agree with but say you can’t be bothered with the details so its good enough. Well, some of us are smart enough to actually analyze this and know enough about medicine to criticize the heuristic of Testosterone as a metric for athletic competitions when there’s more involved than just T.
Is it for boxing?
How is this relevant when you look at advantages in a single competition? This is not a “is it good in life”-situation.
hence it doesn’t have a separate category? BTW, swimmers are taller than average, because being tall is generally ad advantage. It’s one of many factors, but it’s there.
This seems…unlikely. I would say that combat sports have not been “designed” with this in mind, and many other sports are done in the only way they could: swim as fast as you can, run as fast as you can, jump as high/far/etc. as you can.
Then you should understand my answer: it doesn’t break the boundary of established categories.
Are you a medium? Do you read my mind on arbitrary topics? Can you give me 6 numbers for next lottery?
Jokes aside, I didn’t talk about chromosomes, I didn’t talk about testosterone (only once you brought it up), I specifically referred to functional difference, whatever the origin, and also mentioned that the reality is not so easy (not binary).
Perfect, this is a completely separate discussion, one I might agree with even. I wouldn’t know how to make it better, it’s not my area of expertise. What I know is that in many sports women holding record would barely qualify if they were to compete against males, and I think that would not be fun nor fair for anybody. I also think that in combat sports that would be potentially dangerous. Happy to see alternatives in the future.
I’ve already provided multiple examples where the physical advantages, resulting from a neurochemical anomaly, exist and no one had an issue. Why is testosterone special? And if testosterone ISN’T special, then why aren’t they testing for other enodgenous neurochemicals like lactic acid and banning based on that? Why doesn’t this group of lactic acid anomalies get kicked out and refused placement?
Again, it’s transphobia.
You are arguing a point I specifically didn’t make. So I don’t know what to answer you, since none of it has to do with my actual opinion.
Your argument is that intersex conditions blur boundaries for sex in sports. My argument is that these categories are arbitrary and I’m explaining why.
You: the color orange messes with the boundaries we have in place for red and yellow! It can’t be involved!
Me: the boundary for yellow and red is arbitrary and visible light exists on a continuum anyway!
Actually me:
I fully recognize that this is arbitrary, I fully recognize that any “limit” is somewhat arbitrary. The only difference is that I acknowledge that sex is a “good enough” proxy for now.
I still don’t understand how would you avoid that women will never see a medal again in any combat sport, athletics, swimming, tennis and many other sports if you stop using sex as a category. What categories would you use, and are they pragmatic enough that they can be implemented easily?