Israel’s war in Gaza is chipping away at so much of what we – in the United States but also internationally – had agreed upon as acceptable, from the rules governing our freedom of speech to the very laws of armed conflict. It seems no exaggeration to say that the foundation of the international order of the last 77 years is threatened by this change in the obligations governing our legal and political responsibilities to each other.
The victim is now the abuser
We are all watching a holocaust live on TV, perpetrated by the victims of a holocaust 80 years ago
It’s not “breaking the world” it’s literally showing the Israeli state for what it’s been all along, and israeli influence extends so far in the western culturescape that no one is able to actually speak the truth about it
Gaza is the latest in a long line of atrocities committed by countries ostensibly committed to a law of armed conflict.
Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria… hell the US interventions in Somalia and the former Yugoslavia were as horrifying as they were criminal. Sometimes we can find an exigent threat that gives us permission to use overwhelming force to brutalize the bad guys - as in Iraq '91 with the Kuwaiti invasion. Other times we just have to make some shit up, as with Grenada or Vietnam.
But this idea that we’ve had an international order for any of the last 77 years is more a reflection on the quantity of our propaganda than the quality of our international ethics. The total war Israel is conducting in Gaza, while the US hovers overhead threatening to flatten any Egyptian or Jordanian or Lebanese who attempts to intervene, has been historic in the degree to which far more cushy liberal rhetoric has been replaced with full-throated endorsement of ethnic cleansing.
But the policies themselves? We manufactured a famine in Afghanistan shortly after withdrawing the last US troops. We have repeatedly blocked countries with socialist governments from accessing international markets to obtain relief, such as Bangladesh in '74 and Ethiopia ten years later. Somalia has been under near constant assault by US Navy vessels “policing” the most lucrative fishing territories, driving up rates of piracy as a substitute for traditional subsistence farming. Then you’ve got the '91 famine in N. Korea and the '94 Cuban hunger crisis, both the consequence of US blockades.
Any one of these would be considered a modern-day Holodomor from the perspective of an objective outside observer. Unfortunately, Americans only get to hear about Gaza - and even then only in dribs and drabs on social media or alt-news publications - as they turn away from the traditional corporate-friendly press venues.
It’s hard to find a more Nazi way of doing it. Never forget, Zionists signed the Haavara Agreement with Hitler. You can look up Hitler’s quotes on Zionists to find that his problem with them was that *“It doesn’t even enter their heads to build up a Jewish state in Palestine for the purpose of living there” *- that they weren’t being imperial colonialist enough and were just all talk. It’s sad to see the meaning of genocide twisted so much to use the genocide of the past to protect the genocide of the present. Hitler’s problem with Jews in Germany is that they were staying in Germany, it was not with the Zionists who were trying to take over the reigns of Mandate Palestine.
Sort of what we are seeing now, radical far right groups sticking up for each other even when at face value ideologically they should be opposed - because it’s not about the lie they are peddling, it’s about forcing people out and conquering occupied territory to take their wealth and resources. Not that these far right leaders will ever admit it, but the shifting stream of excuses, justifications, and contradictions create the outline of what they’ve even lied to themselves about. They are not people of character.
that’s a bit of hyperbole. Gaza is happening because the institutions were already rotten, and not the other way around
It works both ways. Governments are bending over backwards to silence opposition to Israel, and that means abandoning the rule of law and supressing free speech. The rot was there, but the open corruption and the sheer quantity of lies puts it into overdrive. If not for Israel, Trump would not have been reelected.
Social rot causing systematic rot causing social rot?
Somewhere Hari Seldon is laughing.
This may be a stupid question, but why did we need to create Israel in the first place? If my memory from my shitty American education serves me, they had all these survivors of the Holocaust with nowhere to go, so they created Israel for them to live peacefully, fuck whoever was already living there.
But why couldn’t they all just go back home? I know everyone was shipped off across Europe to the camps but like… surely they remembered where they lived before? Everything was bombed to hell but that’s the same for whoever lived there, Jewish or not. Am I missing a piece that makes the need for their own country to make sense?
It’s actually a good question. We didn’t.
The desire to create a country Israel came about in the 1800s, when Theodor Herzl looked at anti-semitism in Europe and concluded that Jews would never be accepted by countries or have any political power so the only way to get ahead in such a nationalistic world would be to make their own country. It was built on an anachronistic set of ideas; religion was tied to your citizenship of a country. Turkey represented European Muslims and UK/France/Germany represented Christians, and he concluded there was no way Jews could be considered equal citizens in Europe.
Originally the plan was to buy land in Africa or South America and declare a new country there. It was a purely secular plan to build an ethnostate. The World Zionist Congress had a vote and they narrowly approved to build the country in British mandate Palestine, not for religious reasons but because the connection to Jerusalem would help motivate immigration and tourism. They almost had it in Uganda or Argentina or Madagascar.
The holocaust merely accelerated the plan and gave a justification after the fact to build the country. Initially Israeli society didn’t like having holocaust survivors and they weren’t treated well, only today are they out on a pedestal and used as justification for their colonialism.
Jews would never be accepted by countries
Did he thought that they would be accepted by the local population?
As best as we can tell, he truly didn’t care what locals thought. He wanted to buy the land and make everyone else leave so an all Jewish state could be created.
Unfortunately this plan didn’t sit well with the locals who eventually stopped selling land to these newcomers, and the rising illegal immigration caused conflicts. Eventually an actual war erupted and new militias massacred and forcibly expelled the local Arab communities, creating the Israel we have today.
Herzl’s concept wasn’t as terrible on paper as it actually was in practice. (It just wouldn’t work in modern society where countries aren’t governed under ethnic supremacy) But likely if the World Zionist Congress had voted a different way, we’d be talking about how awful Israel was for mistreating Ugandans and forcing them off their land.
British Palestine (and other Mid-East / North Africa states) were notable in that they were far more accommodating to Jewish peoples than the European continent had been. They were colonial territories with large international trading hubs that were already pluralistic and accommodating to foreigners. And they weren’t carrying the baggage of a few centuries of Inquisitions and Pogroms.
Until the Shah was installed in '53, Iran had one of the largest Jewish populations in the world. Ethiopia and Sudan had hundreds of thousands of Jewish people living contentedly in its borders until the '70s, when civil war and famine ripped the country apart. And prior to the Holocaust, there was an enormous flight of Jewish residents to the Americas.
Now, primarily white militant European settler colonialists might have trouble setting up an intentional community of Zionist radicals anywhere. But there’s no reason to believe Argentina or Madagascar would have been materially worse for them than British Palestine.
But there’s no reason to believe Argentina or Madagascar would have been materially worse for them than British Palestine.
There is no reason to believe any population would allow foreigners to build a state in their countries and not react like palestinians
It was more “given up” rather than “freely given” to the Zionists. They were resolute invaders and ferocious terrorists. And once they tuned their sights from the local population to the British, the British fucked off real fast. Then did the paperwork.
I’m no less ignorant than you are, but “returning home” isn’t as easy as it sounds when your leaders and neighbors were at best complicit and at worst eager conspirators (excepting those who rebelled either openly or secretly) in your extermination. Jews have a rather long history of being…mistreated, for lack of a more appropriate term within reach, so the abstract idea of having a self-governed homeland where you can feel safe as a Jew seems to make some degree of sense in context.
But because Zionism is generally practiced by nationalists and religious zealots, and because colonialism was (and evidently is) still considered a-ok by the global power brokers when all this started, the tone of the occupation became “we’re taking your space because we deserve it and you don’t” rather than “may we please share your space in mutual benefit for our safe refuge.”
Right… Like why TF wouldn’t you want to leave
Israel does not have a future after this. They’re removing their own credibility, and the world knows it. They’re nothing but a rogue state at this point, waiting to be put to sleep like a rabid dog.
Like a dying star undergoing supernova. A rampant destruction at the end.
Israel does not have a future after this.
If Germany and Japan could have a future after WW2 - a war they lost categorically - Israel will do just fine in the coming decades, after successfully executing a full ethnic cleanse of some of the more valuable real estate in the Mediterranean.
Israel isn’t a rogue state, it’s a cat’s paw. They’re doing the dirty work as a proxy for allies who have wanted to wipe Arabs off that corner of the map for decades. In the end, however, you’re going to see western states welcome Israelis back into the fold with open arms, just so long as they can pin this all on Netanyahu and pretend it wasn’t a national project with the full support of the Israeli public.
All the major western countries still back up israel and.was celebrsting them attacking Iran. Unfortunately israel is not a rogue state yet
I bet they are grabbing by the balls most of those states with something. If that is the case, it won’t last for long.
They buy israeli military tech tested in gaza and are still neocolonial racist countries
The US backs Israel no matter what. However the current situation is more difficult within the EU. Suspending the trade agreement with Israel is relativly possible. At the same time Israel being convicted of genocide, would basically end any sort of moral argument made in countries like Germany. Also the US is a huge reason to be more Israel friendly and that relationship has some issues.
Israel attacking Iran was celebrated in countries like Syria too. Not exactly a rarer stance in the Arab world too.
Syrians hate Iran but hate Israel harder. If EU can still back up Ukraine despite trump siding with Russia, they can stop supporting Israel too. There is no excuse at all for Europe. The strongest European countries has zero issue with Israel they just like to pretend
Yes an entire population should be put down like a rabbid dog.
Seriously are you listening yourself? Genocide much?
The state of Germany was put down twice, completely dismantled, and ceded. There are still a lot of Germans around. Do you not differentiate between a state and the people residing in it?
Such a shame that doing anything about it, including asking nicely, would be rabidly antisemitic.
Edit: also acknowledging that it’s both happening and a problem is antisemitic. You are allowed to day it would be bad if it did, and youre allowed to acknowledge whats happening only while you sing the popular zionist childrens song ‘exterminate the brutes’.
The only victims of calling palestinian supporter antisemitic is non zionists jews who will exprerience more real antisemitism
Ukraine lowers its head as nobody sees it with its hand up…
While I truely weep for Palestinians this is a large issue that is worldwide. Nobody gives a crap because it’s utter chaos everywhere
I would say the big distinction between Ukraine and Gaza is that in Ukraine there has been a meaningful (and enormously lucrative) project to arm locals in opposition to Russian invasion. It’s been of dubious success, given how much territory they still lost. But its difficult to say that the Biden Era government (or even Trump Term 1) wasn’t willing to shovel arms and mercenaries into Ukraine in an effort to cripple Russian advances.
In Gaza, the Israel blockade has gone virtually unchecked - outside of a few salvos from Yemen and some allegations of support from Iran and Hezbollah. Americans are supporting the genociders not the victims. There is no Gaza military left to repeal an invasion nor is there any appetite for a Hamas resistance to repeal IDF advances. At this point, it’s little more than a shooting gallery.
There’s a line of combat between Ukraine and Russia. There’s nothing in Gaza. Just Israelis and their private security contractors kettling and massacring neighborhood after neighborhood, then flagging bulldozers to knock down the houses when they’re done.
Late stage capitalism is killing the world
ban landlords.
Our imaginations have always fallen short with regard to World War III. The only thing anyone can visualize is total nuclear destruction, but this world definitely has another actual world war left in it where conventional forces fight it out across multiple fronts, largely through proxies but orchestrated by the major powers. The world economy will plunge into chaos for a decade or more. The political situation in every country around the world will turn to shit. Fascism will bloom and commit mass atrocities. Oh shit… that’s all already happening.
The Jewish people of the world deserve apology from the government of isreal for using their suffering as a political tool in service of genocide.
In conflating politics and imperialism with lineage and race, the political movement of Zionism sows incalculable hatred into the world in the name of Judaism, so that they can reap it later, when Jewish people suffer as meat shields, as justification for expansionism, and forever-war. Down with this theocratic shell game.
As someone who is a Jewish refugee in the US, there are more than enough Jewish folks in Israel and around the US who are completely fine with what the government of Israel is doing. They should not be let off the hook. I say this fully realizing that the pro Palestinian sentiment has a large Jewish constituency in the US. So it’s not to paint with a broad brush. But people living in Israel are almost 3/4 in support of what is happening and the only protests in that country were from people who wanted to rescue the hostages but were fully on board with the horrors the country is committing in the name of Jews around the world. The conflation of a religion with an ethnicity will end up making us less safe.
That’s not because they’re Jewish, though, it’s because they’ve let their ego and pride overcome their empathy for their fellow human beings.
There’s plenty of non-Jewish people who are also perfectly happy to profit off the suffering of Palestinians.
it’s because they’ve let their ego and pride overcome their empathy for their fellow human beings.
What a terrible excuse
Those were absolutely not the only protests in Israel, those were the only protests in Israel that got coverage and support from the government. The protests against what was happening were violently suppressed and silenced as has been happening for quite some time. Yes the large anti netanyahu protests made little mention of Palestinians rather than ceasefire deals to bring the hostages home but that is how you bring people together politically.
Once the hostages are all released most of them will stop caring
This is hilariously short sighted.
Oh yeah? So why Israelis was so silent before the 7 of October?
Are you a real person? Israel has been destroying Gaza since way before October 7th.
Yes, did i say otherwise? Israel has been destroying Gaza since way before October 7t and Israeli was pretty silent about it strengthening my statement that most Israelis only care about their hostages and couldn’t care less about Palestine being genocided
All my life I’ve been hearing propaganda tarring all Jewish people as being murdering racist colonizers.
It’s very strange that that propaganda is now coming from the government of Israel and wealthy Jewish people in the US.
Seems like a really stupid and counterproductive move, but I’m sure they know what they’re doing.
My pro-palestinian praxis is making sure my Jewish neighbours have no reason to even think about aliyah. Jewish safety? It’s here. Reverse doikayt.
Thank you for the little rabbit hole you provided when I was prompted to look up “doikayt”.
https://forward.com/yiddish-world/613858/doikayt-yiddish-word-bund/
The Palestinian people deserve a lot of apologies from a lot of assholes on the internet that have monetized their suffering.
And a lot of people in the Arab world deserve an apology from the Ayatollah of Iran for using them as meat shields in their failed attempt to wipe Israel off the map.
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Literal parallel reality material. Arabs overwhelmingly support Iran’s antagonization of Israel and wish their own governments would do the same. Source: am Arab.
I am arab too, you are lying
The next world war
Will have no rules
Zionism is a destructive toxic ideology of fascistic bloodlust and racial supremacy. It is the true descendent of Nazi ideology.
Given that the Zionist movement was founded decades before the Nazi movement, I would say Nazis are the descendants.
More accurately, they’re both separate descendants of ethnonationalism which was a popular ideology at that time—and still today, evidently, though it seemed to be in decline for a bit during the post-war period.
Well, 19th century zionism was a different thing. Edit: or rather, a more diverse collection if things. Optionally but not necessarily evil. Sometimes it was as benign as ‘lets all go somewhere and join a community together ajd bring the ways that we’re cool to that community and even if they dont totally like us, they can’t hate us more than these assholes’.
So it is fair to say that the idea of zionism that ‘won’, the genocidal theocratic ethnostate, is at least to some extent based on both the nazis, and some of the same esoteric bs the nazis were into.
It was always about stealing local people land and displace them
Herzl’s Diary, 12 June 1895
The property owners will come over to our side. According to my conception, the majority of the local population will have to be transferred elsewhere.
We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country. - Herzl’s Diary, 12 June 1895
Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly - Herzl’s Diary, 12 June 1895
Hertzel’s version, yes. He also tried to get literally cecil rhodes to help. There were others, and people who hated that guy. It didnt quite mean just one thing til a few years later, though.
In the modern definition of the word, yes, its herzel’s that won. I woukd never defend what it is in earnest, only point out that before it started to congeal, it could have been/meant other things.
He didn’t win. Antisemite is still a big problem and isrsel is making it even worse. Jews are still not safe anywhere
Which version was not sbout forcing a state on other people and could realistically work without mass displacement and ethenic cleansing?
he didnt win
Feels like he got to sieze the definition, do all his atrocities.
antisemitism is still a big problem
To you, maybe. To zionists, that’s a feature!
jews are still not safe anywhere
Nobody is, dear. Safety does not grow in walled gardens, and we firebomb the commons pretty regularly.
which version was not about explicitly being a fucking monster
I forget their main advocates or if they were calked specific things, most of what i know about this was chatting with an old historian and an article i read a billion years ago, but there really were different ideas of it as recently as the thirties, like joining already extant communities somewhere. They were, like any 19th century european idea, never completely unproblematic, but some of them tried and at least read as genuinely well intentioned, and there was a lot of schismy bitterness as the meaning of thr word crystalized around hertzel’s thing. Now of course it’s one of tge most vile words in English, but he did not invent it. Mightve been the one who imported it to english.
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Nazis had nothing to do with the Jewish people establishing a homeland in Palestine. Joining those two groups is ridiculous and rude to Jewish people.
The Jewish people began by buying the land legally in the late 1800s as a way to escape persecution. That pissed off the local Arabs (understandably) and both of them started arguing—which was not usually violent until 1920-30ish.
That said, after it became a British Mandate (1917), Israel got a ton of international support. And obviously after WWII, they got whatever they wanted…. Which, was choosing violence.
A lot of the reason the Arabs got little support was because they were fragmented, with no leadership. Each of their revolts were seen as a threat and not a legitimate push back against colonization. And, after the Ottoman Empire fell, England and France “stole” that land, so revolts were more or less terrorism (in their eyes, of course).
The Jewish people began by buying the land legally in the late 1800s as a way to escape persecution.
This is completely ignoring the boycott and parallel society angle. What Zionists did in pre-mandate Palestine was also forced expulsion of Palestinians; the forcing part was simply delegated to the state. Had they simply wanted to settle in Palestine nobody would’ve minded, but that was fundamentally not what the Zionist project was.
According to Israeli historian Benny Morris, Zionism was inherently expansionist and always had the goal of turning the entirety of Palestine into a Jewish state. In addition, Morris describes the Zionists as intent on politically and physically dispossessing the Arabs.
The World Zionist Organization established the Jewish National Fund (JNF) in 1901, with the stated goal “to redeem the land of Palestine as the inalienable possession of the Jewish people.” The notion of land “redemption” entailed that the land could not be sold and could not be leased to a non-Jew nor should the land be worked by Arabs.[145] The land purchased was primarily from absentee landlords, and upon purchase of the land, the tenant farmers who traditionally had rights of usufruct were often expelled.
-Wikipedia
Nazis had nothing to do with the Jewish people establishing a homeland in Palestine.
Nazism had a lot to do with the German people expanding their homeland to Eastern Europe and Russia and murdering the inhabitants. Starting to see the similarities now? Nazism and Zionism are sister ideologies, both fruits from the same rotten tree that is European settler colonialism.
Anyone could argue that “my people deserve this” is a similar ideology. That’s just false equivalence. You are cherry picking, and ignoring a whole lot of history and intention.
Has Israel moved towards a similar ideology? Yes. But to claim in started out with that intent is just angry jaw flapping.
Anyone could argue that “my people deserve this” is a similar ideology.
“My people deserve this land at the expense of its current inhabitants” is fascism, or at least the underpinning thereof, so you’re not wrong there. Nazism, Zionism, Manifest Destiny, it is literally the same thing manifesting in different ways. Look up “blood and soil” and “Lebensraum”. Ben Gurion is literally on record saying “we must remove the Arabs and take their place”. The Nakba started before the founding of Israel. If you have an argument for how the Nakba was anything but fascism, let’s hear it, but so far you’re not saying anything of substance.
But to claim in started out with that intent is just angry jaw flapping.
Okay let’s try this. Try this online quiz and see if you can get more than 15/21.
It’s really easy to cherry pick similar statements from people and compare them and make a whole website. Anyone could do the exact opposite.
If you’re going to quote people, you need to use dates because as I have said before dates matter.
who bombed the king david hotel again and became leaders of israel? was it the palestinians? No?
Gee and its a wonder why they aren’t called terrorists. Could it be, could be it be racism and colonialism?
It’s really easy to cherry pick similar statements from people and compare them and make a whole website.
My dude non-fascists don’t say “when we settle [region], [group] will have no choice but to scurry like drugged cockroaches” (dated 1983 btw). Also the site has dates and sources for the quotes; most Zionist quotes are recent but a few are from the 20th century with two from before WWI. They even have one by Herzl himself. Zionism was and continues to use and be predicated on downright Nazi antisemitic propaganda about how Jews can never live with non-Jews and how diaspora Jews are sickly and weak and all that shit. That’s why they shit on Holocaust victims, for instance.
Nazis had nothing to do with the Jewish people establishing a homeland in Palestine
They actually had a huge amount to do with the creation of Isreal, actively encouraging and facilitating the movement of German Jews there.
Herlz also asked support from antisemites
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The result of the persecution against the Jews resulted in an influx of them going down there. However, the persecution was long before World War II and the Nazis did not directly assist that migration and therefore comparing the two groups as a team or descendants is offensive.
Facts:
- Zionism happened before Nazism.
- The migration of Jewish people to Palestine began long before WWII.
- The only thing the Nazis did was speed up that migration and establish international sympathy for the Jewish people.
Now, if you’re saying Israel today is Nazi-like… then yeah I agree completely.
the Nazis did not directly assist that migration
Zionists are similar tool of oppressiom to nazis
The Jewish people began by buying the land legally in the late 1800s as a way to escape persecution. That pissed off the local Arabs (understandably) and both of them started arguing—which was not usually violent until 1920-30ish
Arab was pissed of when the zionists plan became clear. Owning lands do not give you right to declare a state
There was a group of Yemeni jews who settled in palestine and people was fine with them. Arabs and those jews was going to each other festivities.
The state declaration was in 1948. Zionism was established in 1897.
That leaves 51 years for things to go wrong—and they did.
If things got pretty bad around 1920, that’s just a few years after Britain put its dirty cock in the mix. And I think we can both agree British colonialism has been the cause of a ton of problems.
Zionism was a solution to Jewish statelessness and persecution. In its early conception, Zionism was not a tool of oppression, but rather a form of self-determination.
Did Zionism become a genocidal maniac? Yes.
Zionism was a solution to Jewish statelessness and persecution. In its early conception, Zionism was not a tool of oppression, but rather a form of self-determination.
Zionists had no right to impose a state in any country. Even if the state was in Argentine or Japan or the USA, the population would have not accepted either. Facing a persecution is not a valid argument against imposing a state on the land of people who had nothing to do with the oppression .
No matter how peaceful the ideology started , fact is fact Zionism became violent and is the source of the whole conflicts with the help of the British empire.
I agree with you. Zionism did not start out similar to Nazism, and overtime, with the help of the British government, it became something significantly terrible and has lost all focus of the original intention: to escape persecution.
And… over years there have been more and more Pointless deaths – mostly caused by Israel. And in 2025, I don’t think anyone could argue against it being full on genocide against non-Jewish people in Palestine.
lost all focus of the original intention: to escape persecution.
They could have escaped percussion and live as normal citizens of Palestine but no the plan of Herzl was always to impose a state and displace the local population
Herzl’s Diary, 12 June 1895
The property owners will come over to our side. According to my conception, the majority of the local population will have to be transferred elsewhere.
We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our own country. - Herzl’s Diary, 12 June 1895
Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly - Herzl’s Diary, 12 June 1895
Nazi was quickly in position of power so they was able to execute their plan very fast at first Nazism exclusion, discrimination, and the removal of Jews from German society then the final solution and the holocaust . Zionism needed more time to do it. Now in 2025 we are in the final stage of Zionism , the complete eradication of Palestinians in Gaza and slowly continuing eating the west bank
The Nazis were doing mass shooting, the IDF did mass shooting and mass bombing. Both the Nazis and the idf are starving people. The Nazis used gas chambers, the idf is shooting at people seeking aids with the new terrorist organization claiming to be an aid organization.
I am not saying both are equally the same and that the genocide in Gaza is worse than the holocaust but i think it is still fair to compare both rhetoric and methods
Zionists collaborated with Nazis to help them deport Jews to Palestine.
