Yeah, of course they do. They literally form the cornerstone of your worldview. If you change someone’s beliefs, you change how they see the world. That sounds pretty damn big and important.
I wish I got to be as militant about my atheist beliefs as some nut jobs can be about their faith.
Not that I really want to, but must be nice sometimes just acting like everybody that doesn’t think like me is wrong
We could go door to door spreading our disbelief. But we generally hate proselytizers.
Some people are, it’s called antitheism. I confess when I was an edgy 16yo I was like that, but I had just left a religious cult so don’t judge me too harshly.
I went through that for the same reasons. If it was under our caregivers, they went through their traumas that caused that.
Something about being careful what you wish for.
Why does it get that special role of “cornerstone”.
You have a thousand things in your perspective. Sights, sounds, vibes, random thoughts… Why does belief get this special treatment?
I think by cornerstone, they are referencing that beliefs are assumptions that form one’s model of the world.
You think by logically building on assumptions. “I remember putting leftovers in the fridge last night, so I don’t need to make dinner tonight” You assume your memories are accurate (or accurate enough) and then build on other things you “know” to construct every thought.
Sights, sounds, and vibes are a different story. They are called qualia and the raw experience of them cannot be described.
Think of qualia like the raw data you collect from an experiment. Your worldview is the scientific model you’ve built to describe this data and it rests on both fundamental logic and the beliefs/theories you currently believe in.
Unfortunately people don’t like having to change their worldview. And when you’ve held a belief for long enough, it becomes foundational to many of your other assumptions. Some people would rather say reality is wrong than change their beliefs.
The word for a belief that cannot be changed via evidence is called a “delusion” in case you ever want to piss off a religious person who says “nothing can shake my faith” like it’s a good thing.
Sounds like the idea of “belief” is just being accepted as a religious or spiritual idea. Beliefs are the cornerstone because it’s a tool we use every single day.
At the center of how we think is the fundamental idea of The Way Things Work and that comes down to how we believe the physical things around us will act and react. Just about everyone will start making a choice by comparing what we know to be real or true for ourselves and the things around us.
That cornerstone of belief is what we use to define “real and true”. Ghosts or spirits are absolutely real and true for some people while others don’t see the same evidence.
Beliefs get the special treatment because we are a collection of our experiences and each one of us has a different way of understanding how things work.
Like we believe in colors but there aren’t. It’s just the way light bends, reflects.
Ahhh. Yes, they are thinking religion. I didn’t think they’d lunge that way. I mean, with all the politics and gender stuff around these days, I figured the term would bee seen as broader. A wider range of options.
That said. Meh. Your thesis sums to “beliefs are important because beliefs are important”.
Knowledge is built on justified, true beliefs. I know and believe the sun will rise tomorrow. You can believe shit on faith, or lack of evidence, but I’d disagree if someone claims to “know” gods or ghosts exist and ask for their evidence.
I know and believe the sun will rise tomorrow.
No we don’t. Some unforeseen cosmic cataclysm could happen as I type this and obliterate our yellow star. I don’t believe it will, and have faith it won’t.
Speak for yourself, please. I am willing to change my beliefs with new information. Unless you have evidence of an asteroid heading toward our planet or whatever, I’ll stick with what I do know.
Again, faith means belief without evidence. You have every indication the sun will be fine, the earth will be fine, etc.
Cornerstones, my ASS. Beliefs are just goofy fiction. I believe you’re wearing fruit as a hat. Nobody gives a shit. Nobody should ever give a shit. It’s not a cornerstone of my life, it’s a fleeting nothing, based on nothing, worth nothing.
Some asshole taught you that beliefs are everything? They lied. You know what IS everything?
Fucking everything is! Matter, energy, reality, facts, - that’s what’s important. You believe you can walk on the Sun? “Fuck you” - Reality.
So what you are saying is that it is your own belief that the concept of beliefs encompasses only false beliefs.
So why are beliefs so important for ao many people then?
I mean sure, maybe it’s just indoctrination.
Or maybe it’s utility. Believing a nice scientific model or car repair manual can deliver definite advantages.
Or maybe it’s habit. I’m stuck in my head so arranging my mental furniture becomes important.
Or something else
So why are beliefs so important for ao many people then?
They’re a coping mechanism.
Reality often sucks, so how do you go about your day knowing that so many suffer so many injustices every day? Easy! Just ignore them and pretend like everyone will get what’s coming to them in the afterlife 👍
It’s the perfect system for tyrants: Think I’m a monster who abuses my power and intentionally makes people suffer? Well, if you even try to do anything about it you’re going to hell! Overthrowing an openly evil government is not what Jesus would do!
It’s the same mental gymnastics that people use when they blame minorities for their problems. It’s not me or my beliefs (about the world) that are wrong! It’s those trans furry kids and immigrant invaders who are destroying the very concept of everything I believe in!
It can also be a tool.
For example, the model for gravity is just a useful fiction. But it’s useful. And it being constantly useful like that, one becomes attached to it.
A scythe can be used for harvest, cutting a path, or murder. Tools are neutral, intent not so much. And purity doesn’t matter here. I can have purely loving intention and rob someone of their own. Or purely base intention and something beneficial occur by happenstance.
Nietzsche would be proud 🥲
No he wouldn’t, his philosophical viewpoint is a belief in itself. So important to him that he revolved his life around it!
You are assuming that belief = religion, but that’s waaaay off. Belief is anything you don’t know of, and I would argue that there is extremely little we do know at any given point in time. Right now I believe that the window in my room is opened because I can’t see it, and even if I looked at it, I’m believing that my eyes aren’t defying my reasoning.
Belief is what defines us as individuals, every kind of assumptions we do, anything we try to remember, any intuition we have that’s based on experience aka memory, it’s all small figments of our belief system.
My dogma defines my in-group, and my in-group can’t be wrong because then that would mean that I am wrong, which I categorically can’t be. And even if I was wrong, then I would no longer be part of my in-group. Therefore, your science and logic and proof must be wrong if it contradicts my dogma.
Okay, but what about your catma? Does that define your naptimes and your need to make people believe that you must’ve meant to smash your face into the table leg after darting through the house?
Sure, but don’t even ask about my ligma
Your ma has lots of experience and wisdom in this regards.
Whatever the case, just make sure you keep your catma inside so it doesn’t get run over by your karma.
Ah, so it’s a narrative control thing. Controlling the narrative (including the narrative of me, my ego or whatever) is important.
Well this begs another question. “Why is the narrative so important”?
I mean, we stand in the midst of a constant hurricane of sights, sounds, thoughts, vibes and nameless sensations, but the narrative gets this primary role.
You gotta ask why.
Maybe we value the wrong things. Maybe greed is a lack perspective, too much isn’t enough. Kind of like people who lived during the Great Depression or had parents who insisted no penny would be spent on bubble gum.
Beliefs lead to actions. Actions affect others. It’s not super complicated.
Lots of things lead to actions. Feelings, habits, inertia, inspiration… Beliefs are not special in this.
Because as Terry Pratchett astutely notes in the Hogfather belief is what makes the human society possible. We invented justice, mercy, duty, laws, money etc. They exist only because we believe in them. Some beliefs make the world better, other ones worse, and we should try to emphasize the former and minimize the latter.
Ok. So there’s benefit there as long as the believing is controlled.
Is there a general benefit or liability to believing? What do we gain and lose simply by believing, no matter what the belief?
They do indeed.
My parents are deeply religious, but have never figured out that it’s my siblings and I who actually answer their prayers.
God sent you to them. It was their reward for rubbing their genitals together. Thank you heavenly Father!!
Judging by all the vaguely hostile comments, you seem to have struck a chord here.
Well that’s a terrible truth.
Yes and I believe this isn’t really a showerthought
So defensive. I believe that I have struck paydirt.
In the wrong community
Defensive? Now who’s stooping to insults because someone doesn’t believe in your belief?
I believe in science. I believe in justice, equality, and freedom. I believe fascism and capitalism is detrimental to humanity.
I do not believe in ghosts. I do not believe in gods, angels or demons. I don’t believe in an afterlife. And I don’t believe corporations are people.
Well that’s unoriginal.
I don’t believe in originality. There is nothing new under the sun.
Well that’s a safe position. Otherwise you’d look like a right schmuck.
Youre an intensely irritating person, is that your goal?
Famous Zen teachers would just whack you with a stick or cut off a finger. bam! Instant enlightenment.
Oh cry me a river.
Well that’s unoriginal.
Belief is a tool for achieving effects; it is not an end in itself. -Peter J. Carroll
Ah quoting. All of the authority with none of the responsibility.
Good writers borrow, great writers steal. -T.S. Elliot
Neither of which is the act of quoting.
On the contrary, quoting is exactly the act of borrowing another’s idea, but doing the courtesy of giving credit to the person from whom you borrowed it.
On the contrary
A borrowed idea stands on utility.
A quote stands on authority.
I was definitely not standing on the authority of Elliott, merely making use of his words and crediting him for it, so you are simply wrong.
You are totally standing on that famous name.
If you’re drawing authority from it, that’s on you. Sometimes you just like the turn of phrase and are giving credit.
Which is more important to you, the phrase or the credit?
Choose another tool.
Well, they are.
They define one’s view of the world, your paradigm.
That depends on the person.
You perceive a thousand things. Sights, sounds, nameless feelings… as well as beliefs.
One can be guided by any of that. And one can treat any of that as central.
Whether or not one treats one’s beliefs as centrally important appears to be a matter of preference or perspective. Or something .
You are lumping together sensory signals (feelings, sights, sounds) with the internal decision making of your brain (beliefs).
I think you are confused by the literal definition of belief, because as it is defined, a belief is anything you think is true, specially without literal proof. There’s tons of stuff we believe are true without certain proof: math, science, memory to a certain extent…
Let me explain, not everyone is a mathematician, not everyone is a scientist, especially an absolute expert in every field. What people usually do is they it trust in people that are experts and they believe that what those say is true because they have proven it to another collection of authorities, and we believe that what those authorities are trustworthy because X. There’s papers about it and I can looks them, but I and most people probably won’t because I decided to believe in their words. That core belief on science, on the fact that the science as we know it is correct (which is again dependant on the interpretation of the universe we currently hold being true which we don’t know…), is something people don’t offer recognise as a belief, but it is.
What you believe to be true will affect how you process what you see, what you hear, and how you ultimately act.
It’s important because it’s the deciding factor of almost every actions you consciously take.
Let me say that I’m not, in no way shape or form, saying belief in a religious tone. I’m using the literal definition of belief of the dictionary.
For reference because I won’t probably return to this comment, they way I see beliefs is similar to the philosopher Ortega y Gasset.
Yes, I am lumping them together. I see no need to distinguish them into internal and external for these purposes.
(But if I was going to distinguish them, I might at manipulability, portability, communicability. )
And yes, one may be guided and impressed by a sight as surely as an idea. None of these takes precedence over any other, naturally, as far as I can tell.
To some people it is.
I always liked the line in Dogma about them, don’t turn ideas into beliefs, you can change ideas easier than beliefs. Paraphrased and I understand how much it waters down the whole problem but I still thought the idea of it was nice. Listen and be open, you shouldn’t always need to be rigid. Though mean there are still ideals I’m rigid about, respect, compassion and such. Though I always thought the idea was you thought about what worked best for everyone not just what people said you should do cause tradition.
Easily said. But the psychological power of authority is so big. Authorities in the role of leader, expert, and the authority of the consensus. It may very well be programmed into our biology to automatically obey and believe. We may find ourselves falling into rigid belief without even trying.
if a belief is a model/theory/assumption that a person will not change regardless of evidence against it, it is by definition a delusion.
If a belief is an opinion, it is a personal statement. Statements like “Vim is the best IDE” are really conveying the information “I prefer Vim over all others IDEs” which is a true statement.
If a belief is a hypothesis then the person holding it will accept if it ends up being wrong.
Only in the first and second cases do people usually place importance on their beliefs, and typically, only the first case leads people to harm others or themselves with no way to convince them to stop.
Like Schrödinger and his cat?
To generalize it, I’d call a belief “an idea that you are attached to”. And it bears upon your more general blob of beliefs, thoughts, memories, etc accordingly. Like a constant among variables in the midst of an algorithm.
The word for established assumptions is “axioms”
Definitions are kind of the most fundamental axioms. Abstracting things helps us build with them and they’re true because you say they are.
We use axioms in models to derive new theorems/information. But that is often what makes us resist changing them. If you build your other assumptions on an axiom, you have to rethink all those assumptions or even throw them out when it gets proven wrong.
However, attachment to a belief, holding to an assumption even when it’s been proven wrong, is called “delusion” and yeah those beliefs tend to be the most destructive
There’s something to be said for practicing detachment, too. Or rather the impermanence of things.
That’s a fact for sure.
I think it’s weird that people even have beliefs. Belief is a dirty word to me.
I’m inclined to agree. But I meditate and stuff.
In my view, beliefs are important. To me, a person is built from their beliefs.
Beliefs are mutable and can change for all sorts of reasons, at all sorts of speeds, and in all sorts of ways. They’re not permanent, but I do think they’re fundamental to the character of a person.
