Because as Terry Pratchett astutely notes in the Hogfather belief is what makes the human society possible. We invented justice, mercy, duty, laws, money etc. They exist only because we believe in them. Some beliefs make the world better, other ones worse, and we should try to emphasize the former and minimize the latter.
Ok. So there’s benefit there as long as the believing is controlled.
Is there a general benefit or liability to believing? What do we gain and lose simply by believing, no matter what the belief?
I believe in science. I believe in justice, equality, and freedom. I believe fascism and capitalism is detrimental to humanity.
I do not believe in ghosts. I do not believe in gods, angels or demons. I don’t believe in an afterlife. And I don’t believe corporations are people.
Well that’s unoriginal.
I don’t believe in originality. There is nothing new under the sun.
Well that’s a safe position. Otherwise you’d look like a right schmuck.
Youre an intensely irritating person, is that your goal?
Famous Zen teachers would just whack you with a stick or cut off a finger. bam! Instant enlightenment.
Oh cry me a river.
Well that’s unoriginal.
Belief is a tool for achieving effects; it is not an end in itself. -Peter J. Carroll
Ah quoting. All of the authority with none of the responsibility.
Good writers borrow, great writers steal. -T.S. Elliot
Neither of which is the act of quoting.
On the contrary, quoting is exactly the act of borrowing another’s idea, but doing the courtesy of giving credit to the person from whom you borrowed it.
On the contrary
A borrowed idea stands on utility.
A quote stands on authority.
I was definitely not standing on the authority of Elliott, merely making use of his words and crediting him for it, so you are simply wrong.
You are totally standing on that famous name.
If you’re drawing authority from it, that’s on you. Sometimes you just like the turn of phrase and are giving credit.
Which is more important to you, the phrase or the credit?
Choose another tool.
I think it’s weird that people even have beliefs. Belief is a dirty word to me.
I’m inclined to agree. But I meditate and stuff.
Beliefs are important, beliefs are what gets us through life somewhat mentally sane.
Beliefs are (for example) the cornerstone of relationships, because you have to believe that your partner really loves you. There is no hard evidence for that so it can never be a fact, only a belief.
I believe that my neighbors don’t plan to kill me in my sleep (why should they, I am a nice and easy neighbor), I believe that the person at the fast food corner doesn’t spit on my food (and that they had washed hands after using the toilet), I believe that my landlord will some day repair the water damage in my second bathroom (and put all the bathroom stuff like sink, shower and toilet back in).
One could say that belief is behind everything where “trust” is involved. Belief is just accepting something as true, either because it is something that is a concept without hard facts (love, religion, justice, freedom, money, “the good in people”) or it is something where the information are lacking either because they are not fully known yet or because it is such a complex topic that having all information is (nearly) impossible.
I believe for example that climate change is real, because I trust (there it is again) the science. I have to believe in this case because I can’t have all the information without studying climate sciences, and one can argument that even our best climate scientists doesn’t have all the information (models are still incomplete and simulations don’t use all possible parameters) so even they have to believe for some parts.
Beliefs become problematic when people take them as hard facts, as dogmas, and become extreme.
I believe that taking extreme positions is always wrong and a way to disaster and suffering. That’s one reason why I don’t like faith and are against cults of any kinds.
Are you saying that beliefs are useful (necessary even) for navigating other beliefs?
For example, I believe that my neighbors wont kill me. I do that to stave off the belief that my neighbors will kill me.
The part with the neighbors was more or less only a joke. If i believe anything about them, then that they are good, honest and peacefull people. Because so far nothing happend to make be think otherwise.
The belief that the neighbors will kill someone (oneself for example) sounds more like a delusion… or a really bad neighborhood!
In both cases is a counter belief maybe not the best solution
But yes, i do think that beliefs can be helpful to counter inner urges and impulses. The belief in laws and punishment by law is an example for it.
And shared beliefs (for example faith and religion) acts like a glue for societies. The belief in eternal judgment by an all knowing god in combination with a holy law book (that is what most holy texts in their core are IMHO) helps to prevent chaos and ensures that people can work against a common and shared goal. As an example for the good and positive side of that.
It was just an example.
My point is the specific utility of beliefs. You seemed to be offering an interesting one.
Imagine a landscape made of beliefs. In it you are always standing on some bunch of beliefs. So choosing and navigating is going to be important. To get to the good beliefs and avoid the bad ones.
The landscape should also have some strong pillars and mountains of hard facts and factual truth. But besides that, yes it sounds like a good mind construct. Interesting idea for sure.
They do indeed.
My parents are deeply religious, but have never figured out that it’s my siblings and I who actually answer their prayers.
God sent you to them. It was their reward for rubbing their genitals together. Thank you heavenly Father!!
The more I think about it, the more I realise how less I understand this word.
I always liked the line in Dogma about them, don’t turn ideas into beliefs, you can change ideas easier than beliefs. Paraphrased and I understand how much it waters down the whole problem but I still thought the idea of it was nice. Listen and be open, you shouldn’t always need to be rigid. Though mean there are still ideals I’m rigid about, respect, compassion and such. Though I always thought the idea was you thought about what worked best for everyone not just what people said you should do cause tradition.
Easily said. But the psychological power of authority is so big. Authorities in the role of leader, expert, and the authority of the consensus. It may very well be programmed into our biology to automatically obey and believe. We may find ourselves falling into rigid belief without even trying.
IMO “I don’t know” is a perfectly valid opinion if you just don’t know.
Read the book Sapiens.
Being able to believe in fiction is what allows humanity to function.
Eeeee, interesting. I’ll check that out.
Belief isn’t inherently bad you can believe in observational facts. It’s faith that’s dangerous. Any system that requires you to maintain beliefs without observable facts or in the face of negative confirmational facts is a problem.
And yet getting advice from an expert can be very helpful.
In my view, beliefs are important. To me, a person is built from their beliefs.
Beliefs are mutable and can change for all sorts of reasons, at all sorts of speeds, and in all sorts of ways. They’re not permanent, but I do think they’re fundamental to the character of a person.
if a belief is a model/theory/assumption that a person will not change regardless of evidence against it, it is by definition a delusion.
If a belief is an opinion, it is a personal statement. Statements like “Vim is the best IDE” are really conveying the information “I prefer Vim over all others IDEs” which is a true statement.
If a belief is a hypothesis then the person holding it will accept if it ends up being wrong.
Only in the first and second cases do people usually place importance on their beliefs, and typically, only the first case leads people to harm others or themselves with no way to convince them to stop.
Like Schrödinger and his cat?
To generalize it, I’d call a belief “an idea that you are attached to”. And it bears upon your more general blob of beliefs, thoughts, memories, etc accordingly. Like a constant among variables in the midst of an algorithm.
The word for established assumptions is “axioms”
Definitions are kind of the most fundamental axioms. Abstracting things helps us build with them and they’re true because you say they are.
We use axioms in models to derive new theorems/information. But that is often what makes us resist changing them. If you build your other assumptions on an axiom, you have to rethink all those assumptions or even throw them out when it gets proven wrong.
However, attachment to a belief, holding to an assumption even when it’s been proven wrong, is called “delusion” and yeah those beliefs tend to be the most destructive
There’s something to be said for practicing detachment, too. Or rather the impermanence of things.
That’s a fact for sure.
The difference between a belief and a theory is no one was ever burned at the stake disagreeing about a theory.
I believe I’d like another drink.
