Putting out arrest warrants on both of them is so smart. It’s a way to avoid people claiming they are taking sides or playing favorites or aiding terrorists or being in favor of genocide or whatever. Both leaders are culpable because both the IDF and Hamas have committed atrocities.
It is a politically savvy and ethically correct move. Really nice when those line up.
There’s something satisfying about it.
At least the ICC is willing to do the right thing.
We’ll see in time. Also not sure much will be done if they are. Remember the warrant for Putin was placed March of 2023. The impact on Russia so far seems about summed up to be “Putin can’t attend a D-Day remembrance, and he probably shouldn’t go see the Olympics, which he wouldn’t”
On the other hand, Israel is not Russia. Netanyahu’s vacation options effectively just dwindled to Israel and the US, with no layovers. The Hamas guys are already living as fugitives so not much changes there.
Putting out arrest warrants on both of them is so smart. It’s a way to avoid people claiming they are taking sides or playing favorites or aiding terrorists or being in favor of genocide or whatever.
It would be absurd and unjust to issue a warrant for only one of them. This was the right thing to do.
I agree, and I found it interesting that Israeli leaders were not accused of genocide or anything to do with their bombing campaign. Instead, it was the specific war crime of causing starvation due to their interference with humanitarian aid and food delivery. Kind of provides additional context for the US decision to build a floating pier off the Gaza coast.
It’s much easier to say that an intentional blockade of food is leading to starvation, and that is a clear war crime. Very simple argument, easier to prove.
Talking about a bombing campaign is more difficult when soldiers are mixed in with the civilians. We may be able to point at the situation and say “that’s clearly fucked up”, but courts don’t work that way. They have to acknowledge that in a war, the army is allowed to destroy the combatants of the enemy. A certain amount of collateral damage in the form of innocent lives lost is allowed by international law. This makes it all much murkier and more difficult to prove what is or is not a genuine war crime. They can’t wing it, or guess, or go by what it “looks like”, they have to prove it, which again, is difficult.
Starvation and depriving food aid though, very easy to prove.
yeh but in today’s age of videos and drones everywhere it should be fairly easy to prove.
before all the AI video lets loose anyways
That is Genocide, the UN tries not to use the general term whenever possible, and instead use the specific method of genocide. That way it’s a lot harder to No True Scotsman the issue. but If I remember correctly they also charged Extinction and Murder. Then in the supporting documents they talk about systematic bombing and creation of a famine.
No, genocide is an Article 6 charge. The ICC is perfectly willing to use that term, and in fact has explicitly charged Omar al Bashir with genocide under Article 6.
In contrast, Netanyahu and Hamas leaders are accused under Articles 7 and 8. These articles respectively cover “Crimes against humanity” and “War crimes”, but they do not include genocide.
Both Netanyahu and Hamas leaders are accused of “crimes against humanity of murder and extermination” under Article 7.
Netanyahu is also accused of “intentionally using starvation of civilians” under Article 8, whereas Hamas leaders are also accused of “rape and other forms of sexual violence” under Article 8.
There are currently no charges based on the Israeli bombing campaign, but the ICC says this is “actively being investigated.”
The CNN headline is a bit misleading. It’s not the International Criminal Court as a whole that is seeking these arrest warrants but the ICC’s chief prosecutor Karim Khan. The judges have yet to decide on these warrants.
[Side note: This is the same kind of lazy journalism that uses terms like EU chief or EU leader interchangeably for the President of the European Commission (Ursula von der Leyen) and the President of the European Council (Charles Michel). If this was limited to a short headline, I could excuse it, but CNN continues with the same wording in the first sentence of the article: “The International Criminal Court is seeking arrest warrants for …” which is absolutely unnecessary, even if CNN clarifies things later.]
I’ve always considered CNN to stand for Clearly Not News
Edit - the BBC headline starts “ICC prosecutor seeks arrest of…”
Ok, this is very interesting. How is it he took this initiative? Actually, is it an initiative or part of the process?
It’s part of the process. Now the request is before judges who will decide whether or not to issue the arrest warrants. For reference, when an ICC prosecutor asked for an arrest warrant for Vladmir Putin, it took a couple months for the judges to decide and then issue the warrant.
Yeah, the process is slow but thorough (as it should be since these are among the most difficult cases in existence).
Thank you, good to know!
I know nothing about the process. How can a decision take months? What else are they doing? Are there counter arguments or something happening in the meantime?
The judges have to read and verify the documents they got for this case. This takes some weeks to months.
And good thing Putin is rotting in a prison cell right now.
hopefully his helicopter will crash into the foggy mountains or his train to china/north korea will derail
Trains do not derail in North Korea. It is forbidden.
Modern Journalism, and I use that term loosely, at work. Once you notice these kinds of misleading to incorrect headlines you can’t stop seeing them.
I think that’s a distinction without a difference. How would the ICC seek an arrest warrant if not by having the chief prosecutor submit one? If the court had approved it, the title would be “arrest warrant issued by ICC”.
Biden can’t save him, because we wouldn’t agree to the Rome act because we thought that somehow meant we couldn’t be charged at the Hauge for our war crimes. That’s not true tho, we don’t have to agree to it.
Israel and the United States are not members of the ICC. However, the ICC claims to have jurisdiction over Gaza, East Jerusalem and the West Bank after Palestinian leaders formally agreed to be bound by the court’s founding principles in 2015.
I mean… yes you do, since that’s a little bit how international law works? Countries who do not sign and ratify the Rome statute and then remain in there aren’t governed by the ICC in the same way.
You will see in the excerpt you quoted, the reason the ICC believes it has jurisdiction is because of events taking place in Palestine, which has taken part in the Rome Statute previously.
And the United States has a law that says it will militarily invade The Hague if any US service member is arrested and held by the court. It came about along with all the other legislative bullshit in the years after 9/11/01. The US had previously been a founding member of the ICC, but withdrew for reasons of sovereignty.
Sovereignity, my ass. They just don’t want war crimes committed by their own military investigated by an independent body.
Correct.
That position and sovereignty are not mutually opposed, depending on the view you take towards international law.
Hittem with that “sovereignty to do what?”
International law gets weird. Tradition is absolutely a legitimate way for something to get recognized. That works because of Sovereignty and the intense political nature of anything between countries. So basically, if someone got an Israeli to the Hague, then the Netherlands could point at the decades of precedent for the moral high ground in refusing to release them. Whether that works depends on politics and what people think. So just because we didn’t sign the paper does not mean we can resist it forever. If the world wants to head in that direction, the best we can do is dig our feet in and make it take longer.
And no sane US president would use the Hague Invasion Act. It’s an open question if the military would even follow the order. that would require invading a NATO ally with strong defense systems tied into their neighbors. It would be a great way to obliterate our world standing in one fell swoop.
US law doesn’t say that it WILL it says that it CAN. As an American I’d be wayyyy beyond pissed off if we did I to rescue fucking Bibi.
By your logic the nazis shouldn’t have been tried at the Hauge…
Is that what youre intentionally saying? Or did you not think it through?
Like even this bit:
And the United States has a law that says it will militarily invade The Hague if any US service member is arrested and held by the court. It came about along with all the other legislative bullshit in the years after 9/11/01. The US had previously been a founding member of the ICC, but withdrew for reasons of sovereignty.
If no US service member could be tried at the Hauge because the US didn’t sign the Rome agreement…
Why pass a law saying we’re not subject to it?
And when did Bibi join the US military anyways?
I missed that one…
First: it’s not my logic. It’s how this part of international law works. The International Criminal Court wasn’t created until 1998, and the statute that governs it only officially came into power in 2002. Not all countries have signed, and some (including the US) have withdrawn from it. This means that technically the ICC doesn’t have any jurisdiction over things that happen within its territory.
The US codified it into a domestic law because it doesn’t believe its should be beholden to any law higher than its domestic ones, and the United States often does shady things in countries where the ICC does have jurisdiction, making it a risk that US citizens (and leaders) can be arrested for crimes that occur there. So the US Congress wrote domestic policy stating that it reserved the right to invade if its citizens were held for trial.
And Bibi didn’t join the US military. But the US has shown it’s willing to support his administration through an awful lot of shit, and the US doesn’t have any ambiguity about how it regards the ICC.
Finally, are you referring to the Nuremberg trials? Nazis weren’t tried in The Hague court we are discussing, and I’m not sure any nazi trials happened there at all.
Edit: I don’t understand the downvotes. This is literally just how the International Criminal Court works.
The US codified it into a domestic law because it doesn’t believe its should be beholden to any law higher than its domestic ones
Well that’s not true. Our Constitution clearly places treaties above domestic law.
…
I think that will help you understand
Yes, the origin of one of the international courts in The Hague, specifically the one that prosecutes individuals, the International Criminal Court, comes from the Nuremberg Trials. I never disputed that lineage. Those nazi trials happened in Nuremberg, not The Hague, and before the ICC existed.
the origin of one of the international courts in The Hague, specifically the one that prosecutes individuals, the International Criminal Court, comes from the Nuremberg Trials.
The ICC was created in 2002, just FYI. So long after the Nuremberg Trials. And the ICJ predates Nuremberg via its predecessor entities.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court
You’re meaningfully correct in everything you’re saying though. Just saying this for full context
Thanks for clarifying, I’m aware of that and I think I made mention to that date in my initial reply.
What you quoted was just referring to the article the other poster linked, which goes through how the Nuremberg trials were the primary venue of defining the four major crimes against humanity, and how it impacted the creation of the ICC later.
I am obviously having a hard time articulating my point here, though. I’m literally just trying to explain a little bit about how this particular facet of an international legal regime works.
Fun fact about the ICJ, though: the USA withdrew from the court after it was found guilty of mining Nicaragua illegally. I really wish it did more to actually follow the legal norms it tried to push in its ideology.
Edit: mixed up ICJ and ICC at the end.
Nice that they see the criminals on both sides.
Same side.
Hamas is almost totally funded by Benny and his croneys.
Was I think, they stopped a few years ago.
This is a conspiracy theory with no actual evidence
Wow, whitewashing Iran and Qatar’s role in Hamas’ actions. Very progressive left of you.
Boo hoo, did the homegrown terrorist org funded by state interest as a propaganda machine get outta hand?
At this point, which one?
I’m interested in sticking to the facts. If you aren’t, that’s fine. I can block and move on with my day.
Man you are talking about whitewashing as you actively try to shift blame from the inceptor and then try and say your talking about facts.
Fact of the matter is that palastinian terrorism is caused by Israel. Both their genocidal and apartheid ends and directly through funding of groups like Hamas early in their years to promote harsh measures to continue their genocide and apartheid ends.
“Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu defended Israel’s regular allowing of Qatari funds to be transferred into Gaza, saying it is part of a broader strategy to keep Hamas and the Palestinian Authority separate, a source in Monday’s Likud faction meeting said,” the Post reported.
But nah. You wanna deflect facts and focus on Qatar like everyone doesn’t already know that. This information is ment to be taken in conjunction but your so far up your own ass you see it as an argument and whitewashing.
You want facts? Facts say Israel funded Hamas. Nurtured it and kept it on the edge of scary to propagandize it’s civilian population. Then it bit them in the ass on Oct 7th.
If your first thought about hamas isn’t how Israel as a state purposely created and maintained it then it’s you who isn’t operating on facts.
Do you actually understand what you are posting yourself? Qatar funded Hamas under an agreement with Bibi which enabled Bibis strategy and Qatars own political goals. Did Israel fund Hamas in those years? No. Did Israel actively guarantee that Qatar funds Hamas? Yes.
Man walks in here waving his post around like I GOT HIM, I GOT HIM SO GOOD as he points out the content of the article like i don’t know what it says. Nah dude. I know what it says, I call that funding. You would too if your head was so far up your own ass.
Lol, I don’t support Israel in this conflict.
Who gives a shit what you support? Your being a dummy for attention at this point.
Oh no. Watch out everyone, this guy’s gonna stick to the facts by checks notes plugging his ears and walking away.
If it is a fact that Israel is paying for Hamas and Iran and Qatar aren’t, it will be very easy for you to prove that.
I will wait.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/netanyahu-israel-gaza-hamas-1.7010035
Oh nooo, did someone open their fucking mouth about shit they don’t know about and are about to get dunked on?
“Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu defended Israel’s regular allowing of Qatari funds to be transferred into Gaza, saying it is part of a broader strategy to keep Hamas and the Palestinian Authority separate, a source in Monday’s Likud faction meeting said,” the Post reported.
Netanyahu’s current finance minister, West Bank settler Belazel Smotrich, explained the approach to Israel’s Knesset channel in 2015: “Hamas is an asset, and (Palestinian Authority leader) Abu Mazen (Mahmoud Abbas) is a burden.”
“Both Egypt and Qatar are angry with Hamas and planned to cut ties with them. Suddenly Netanyahu appears as the defender of Hamas,” the right-wing leader complained.
A year later, Netanyahu was further embarrassed when photos of suitcases full of cash going to Hamas became public. Liberman finally resigned in protest over Netanyahu’s Hamas policy which, he said, marked “the first time Israel is funding terrorism against itself.”
that was really trivially easy
Israel has allowed suitcases holding millions in Qatari cash to enter Gaza through its crossings since 2018
I’m sure bibi did that out of the spirit of charity.
Look, as far as I can tell, Israel created a monster, then lost control of the monster. The monster has since found other sources of support. In trying to perform ethnic cleansing and forced land transfers over the last 80ish years, they have also been monstrous. There is wicked evil on both sides of this pointless genocidal war. Stop plugging your ears to the parts that make the people you happen to already agree with look bad.
I’m not sure I understand how these warrants can take place. It will come from other member states in case any of them travel there?
Also how is it that Putin has not been arrested yet? Has he avoided those destinations.
If I misunderstood something or everything, please let me know.
Yes, Putin has avoided those destinations so far. He even got warned by South Africa that they’d have to arrest him if he were to travel to a meeting there.
Thank you for the clarification!
They can’t make a country arrest it’s own leader.
But if they travel to any UN country, the country is supposed to arrest them, or coordinate with countries willing to.
So these are more like an exile than anything.
Kind of like a sanction but instead of money it’s on personal travel.
Sanctions are still waaaaaay more effective though and what we should be doing. Money is what these despots care about.
so this also means that if netanyahu loses elections, he can be just sent to hague
If the person who beats him wants too…
And if Netenyahu even lets Israel have elections. Before 10/7 he was already in the process of getting kicked out of office, the only reason he’s still in power is 10/7.
is 10/7 like the new 9/11 (in terms of abbreviation)?
Only to countries that are part of the ICC. Many countries, including the US, aren’t a part so Netanyahu can safely travel to those places.
Technically any member state, but they wouldn’t refuse him if a non member state arrested him too. And I say technically because there’s a few member states that support him and would likely not arrest him.
Good, this is a situation in which both sides are both truly disgusting and vile, using people as pawns, shields, etc.
Yeah, for some reason too many people are having difficulty understanding that in this case, yes, the both side argument works quite well. Both Hamas and the Israeli government are horrible with the citizens on both side suffering
It’s worth clarifying that the Palestinian civilians are not Hamas though. It’s also misleading to say they elected them democratically, as the median Palestinian was a literal infant when the last election happened, and nearly half weren’t even born.
I’m counting Palestinian civilians separate from Hamas, just like the Israeli government is t the same as it’s people
Definitely agree. Although I will add that Israel has likely played a large part in radicalizing many members of Hamas and their actions in Palestine have dwarfed the initial Hamas attack, no atrocity should go unpunished.
Both points are valid so yeah, both are bad to the point that both groups should be tried by the ICC and be locked away for life, all of them
And both sides are equally pissed off being put on the same level as the others.
Regardless of the technicalities and nuances in the reporting: this is a good thing.
Can we talk about a story that’s fallen through the cracks here? CNN claiming this as an exclusive is madness. Who do these people think they are? And should the ICC issue arrest warrants about it? 😉
CNN claiming this as an exclusive is madness
That’s an excellent point you’re making
EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW
Have anyone opened the link?
They changed it to that considerably less bonkers headline. Perhaps because they became of aware of their legal exposure under international laws against poor taste…? 🧐
Also, not sure if just me, but I couldn’t give a flying fuck whether a news outlet is first to break a story or not. Seems a bit self conglatulatory
All the better to control the narrative if you can DCMA the rest?
Is Giuliani behind this tact?
Let’s check what the left wing “progressive” israelis think about this.
It’s not comparing them, they have just all went over the bar for being war criminals.
Herein lies one of the innumerable differences between democratic socialists and liberals
More links
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c3ggpe3qj6wo
https://apnews.com/article/icc-khan-netanyahu-070941d21ccd1f2b9611032b88527575
Karim Khan said that he believes Netanyahu, his defense minister Yoav Gallant and three Hamas leaders — Yehia Sinwar, Mohammed Deif and Ismail Haniyeh — are responsible for war crimes and crimes against humanity in the Gaza Strip and Israel.
The prosecutor must request the warrants from a pre-trial panel of three judges, who take on average two months to consider the evidence and determine if the proceedings can move forward.
Israel is not a member of the court, and even if the arrest warrants are issued, Netanyahu and Gallant do not face any immediate risk of prosecution. But Khan’s announcement deepens Israel’s isolation as it presses ahead with its war, and the threat of arrest could make it difficult for the Israeli leaders to travel abroad.
Both Sinwar and Deif are believed to be hiding in Gaza as Israel tries to hunt them down. But Haniyeh, the supreme leader of the Islamic militant group, is based in Qatar and frequently travels across the region.
Fucking hell got so confused by the title, was wondering what the fuck do these guys have to do with cricket.
The cricket council honestly has more chance of bringing any of these cunts to justice than the real ICC.
I mean fucking Kony is still on the list, and I forget how long ago that was a thing, and he was on their list long before that.
I finally “learned” the rules of cricket, and now understand why Americans created baseball. A game takes a fucking week‽‽ We don’t have time for that shit!
iirc Hitler had it banned from Germany after learning the week long match against England ended with no result lmao.
Anyways that’s the test cricket format. The typical game is ODI which lasts about 7 hours, and the world cup happening this June is T20I which lasts 2.5 hours and is the most exciting to watch.
There are one day matches too.
same could be said about NBA, MLB, and NHL playoffs
Those games are completely different from cricket. Baseball has some pretty close similarities to cricket
They’ve already called it antisemitic.
ICC is hamas
You mean “they did it first” doesn’t hold up in international court?
“Let me be clear,” the president said in the statement, “whatever this prosecutor might imply, there is no equivalence – none – between Israel and Hamas.”
Biden saying the right things as usual. /s
It’s true. Hamas is posting rookie numbers. They’ve got to up their death count by around 10x before they can be in Israel’s league.
At this point they need to gag the man and have surrogates stump for him.
Calling on the militant branch of the Yang Gang?
It’s a good thing that he’s not President and this is all Trump’s fault. /s
Yeah, Trump certainly helped stabilize the area by moving the Embassy. And that mid-east peace plan his SIL got paid $2 billion for was worth every cent.
Haha, just mention Trump and you guys show up. We’re not pro Trump.
Oh boy, I can’t wait to see the reactions of politicians of the “free world” that prevented anyone to say anything against Israel for years on the pretext of antisemitism.
Especially that useless POS of Emanuel Macron, our infamous president.
