They line up in front of a courthouse in southeastern France, from morning to evening, and have gathered in the thousands in cities across the country. They hold signs reading, “one rape every six minutes,” “not all men but always a man,” and “giving in is not consenting.”
They chant: “Rapist we see you, victim we believe you.”
Women across France are rallying in support of Gisèle Pelicot, a 72-year-old reluctant icon whose husband is on trial in the city of Avignon for systematically drugging her and inviting dozens of men, 50 of whom are now his co-defendants, into their home to rape her over nearly a decade.
The shocking case has sparked what many women in France call a long-overdue reckoning over “rape culture” and systemic sexism in the way the judicial system handles sexual violence.
Husband aside, that’s 50 separate people who thought this was okay. Ffs
I think I would have more sympathy with those focusing on the “not all men but always a man” sign if this weren’t in the context of a woman being drugged by her husband and then said husband inviting about 50 random men to rape her, over 10 years.
One of the worst times to advocate for men’s rights/issues is when everyone is talking about the heinous crimes a bunch of men have done. Especially if the comments you’re leaving are focusing on how women rape just as much as men do, etc.
Absolutely agreed.
Something I used to hear regarding feminism was that it also fought for men’s rights even if indirectly for equality purposes. While I wouldn’t say it’s accurate of the movement now, I will say that it’d be a nice thing for men’s rights groups to pick up. If these movements want to be heard then they must be willing to listen to the voices of women and be willing to bring their own to justice.
One of the worst times to advocate for men’s rights/issues is when everyone is talking about the heinous crimes a bunch of men have done. Especially if the comments you’re leaving are focusing on how women rape just as much as men do, etc.
Agreed. Unfortunately there’s always gonna be a whataboutism as long as men feel unheard…
People can lose empathy when they think the world is ignoring them. It’s taken me years to move on from people telling me to “man up” or “get over it” about my SA.
I don’t like that sign. Sure, when she gets raped it’s probably a man but every time it’s happened to me so far it has been a woman, so, no not “always a man.”
“Good” news is that while I was forced to have sex (or else what was I gonna do fight her? Yeah that won’t end with me in cuffs) it isn’t rape because definitionally the worst women can do in my area is sexual assault, and people only care if you’re a minor, just try and report it as an adult. Most people just think “oh you’re a man you must’ve liked it” and just minimize it away because we’re just sex objects so who fucking cares, I just had to get the fuck over it and I did, but it still pisses me off that I’m literally the victim of this shit and treated like a perpetrator by default just because I happen to have a penis, it’s the ultimate “fuck you” on top really.
As a male SA victim I have been repeatedly told that it was my fault for having the privilege. So I guess “you’re welcome” to both of us.
Women will continue to have their feelings trampled on by men because that’s all they’re teaching us as kids.
And yet, what no-one wants to face is the fact that women rape men as frequently as men rape women:
And now the real surprise: when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).
In other words, if being made to penetrate someone was counted as rape—and why shouldn’t it be?—then the headlines could have focused on a truly sensational CDC finding: that women rape men as often as men rape women.
I mean, yes - let’s lock up convicted rapists. But if 50%of cross-gender rapists are women yet almost 100% of convicted rapists are men, there’s some seriously weapons-grade gender bigotry at play, there.
A legal system that is truly based on equality should see about a 50/50 split of male/female rapists convicted, and for largely equal time served as well.
I took a look at the CDC report. Those comparable numbers are only about the 12 months preceding the survey which is, while probably statistically significant, not the whole story. It’s interesting to see why there’s a jump in those numbers for the 12 months preceding, but otherwise if you look at lifetime numbers women are victimized at significantly higher rates than men.
an estimated 19.3% of women and 1.7% of men have been raped during their lifetimes
that’s being penetrated, I think it doesn’t include being made to penetrate, which is covered in other forms of sexual violence.
side note: I don’t know how the article got numbers for “being made to penetrate” specifically, the CDC article doesn’t seem to specifically say it. maybe I skimmed it wrong. I only saw the 1.6% of men reporting “unwanted sexual contact” in the last 12 months, which is compared to the women reporting at 2.2% of women, which is while still almost 40% higher, closer than lifetime experiences which are estimated at 27.3% vs 10.8%. Guess which is which.
An estimated 43.9% of women and 23.4% of men experienced other forms of sexual violence during their lifetimes, including being made to penetrate, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and noncontact unwanted sexual experiences.
This includes being made to penetrate and other things, again if you can find where the 1.6% comes from please let me know.
An estimated 15.2% of women and 5.7% of men have been a victim of stalking during their lifetimes
this is interestingly one of the categories where it is not as close in the last 12 months: women’s rate double men’s. not central to my overall point but it is surprising because if anything I expected this to be closer than other categories, considering social media making stalking easier. just a note.
here’s an interesting part about “always a man”:
women are predominantly predated by men in all forms, but men are predominantly made to penetrate and coerced by women (I guess this is expected more than men would be doing this?), while penetrated predominantly by men (I guess obvious) and suffering other forms of sexual predation including stalking by a relatively even rate of men and women.
That sounds like it all comes pretty close to “always a man”.
that’s being penetrated, I think it doesn’t include being made to penetrate, which is covered in other forms of sexual violence.
Right, in many municipalities it’s impossible for a woman to be charged with rape for forcing someone to have sex with them through coercive means. Until that is no longer the case “men rape more than women” is like saying “you’re more likely to starve without food.” No shit, because definitionally woman legally cannot be charged with rape for raping.
You see how that skews the data, right? Sure “it’s all men” if you don’t count the women, why would that surprise anyone?
Those comparable numbers are only about the 12 months preceding the survey which is, while probably statistically significant, not the whole story.
How’s that relevant? It looks at one year and within that year the number of rape/made-to-penetrate victims is roughly equal for men and women. Unless there was something unusual happening that year or the same men are made to penetrate more often then women get raped, then if you extend the timeframe the numbers should change similarly for men and women.
side note: I don’t know how the article got numbers for “being made to penetrate” specifically, the CDC article doesn’t seem to specifically say it. maybe I skimmed it wrong.
From the 2011 study in the Results section:
For men, the lifetime prevalence of being made to penetrate a perpetrator was an estimated 6.7% (>7.6 million men), while an estimated 1.7% of men were made to penetrate a perpetrator in the 12 months preceding the survey.
wow, your argument really becomes impenetrable once you concede to "unless"es and “if” and "should"s.
there is an extended timeline. it’s called lifetime. and it tells a different story.
about the stats: thanks for finding it, I mixed the numbers and was looking for the 1.6% … anyway, looking for lifetime numbers, if you compare women who have been raped vs men who were raped and made to penetrate combined, the numbers add up to 19.3% of women vs 1.7+6.7 = 8.4% of men assuming zero overlap. that’s still more than double the rate of men.
in the same section for sexual violence other than rape, women’s rates nearly double men’s in lifetime numbers. again for some reason much closer in the 12 months preceding.
sexual coercion: 12.5% vs 5.8% lifetime (more than double) and not that close in the 12 months as other categories, 2% vs 1.3% (1.5x approximately)
etc etc…
I don’t know what the fuck happened between 2010 and 2011 but the numbers for that year do not reflect lifetime experiences of people at all. it makes no sense to disregard the extended timeline and instead use the snippet to extrapolate.
I think you are hand-picking numbers here. The most current CDC Report on Intimate Partner Violence does not support your claims. https://www.cdc.gov/nisvs/documentation/NISVSReportonIPV_2022.pdf
The report you picked excludes quite a lot of victims as it’s about intimite partner violence which it defines as:
The term, intimate partner violence, refers to any physical or sexual violence, stalking, and/or psychological aggression by a current or former dating partner or spouse.
For the full numbers not just for intimate partners you want this report https://www.cdc.gov/nisvs/documentation/nisvsReportonSexualViolence.pdf which confusingly has the same title. It states 2.3% of women raped in a 12 month timeframe and 0.3% of men being raped and 1.3% made to penetrate in the same timeframe, so 1.6% of men either raped or made to penetrate.
So for the first study, I have my emotionally abusive ex that would threaten suicide (at the drop of a hat, but also) when I wasn’t in the mood, and for the “full numbers” there’s the two women I never dated that raped me. Huh, neat. I wonder why the only three abusive women to exist in the world chose me. Couldn’t be that it’s more common than people think or anything, no waaaay.
Oddly defensive response you have.
In the context of this post this is disgusting to bring up.
This doesn’t have any bearing on what this old lady was put through.
In the context of this comment section, and the image that was chosen to lead the article, it is not disgusting and it simply makes sense.
She is a fucking hero, she is brave and she gives hope to us rape victims. But if on the same breath you praise her and the people who support her, and dismiss a fuckton of rape victims just because the perpetrators of their particular rapes were women, then that is bound to raise a significant level of discomfort and take away from what the story should be, giving support to the victim of The Beast of Avignon and all rape victims, encouraging them to come forward.
So basically, “not all men and not all women” should have been the slogan in the first place.
The share may differ - I’m not aware of it being equal and you bring up interesting stats right there - but regardless, men can absolutely be victims of all kinds of abuse, and we have to treat it seriously.
Yes, men forced to do what they don’t like or coerced to have sex is rape, and same for women.
Some American jurisdictions can’t even properly report a male victim of rape or sexual assault because their software is hard-coded to assign the victim as female and the perp as male.
Plus, the vast majority of men have been brainwashed into thinking that it is impossible for a woman to rape a man. So many of them don’t even see their rape as a rape, and frequently blame themselves.
And for the cherry on top, male rape victims can and frequently are forced to pay child support to their rapist if a child is conceived, thereby further traumatizing them. This happens even if the male victim was a minor - upon their 18th birthday they are hit with tens of thousands in arrears, and face jail time if they cannot immediately begin paying. Imagine - jailing a rape victim for the product of their rape!!
Think of how this would go down if the genders were swapped, and then ask yourself: why isn’t it going down like that as it currently is?
Because men don’t matter. Because men are trivially disposable. Because if men cannot provide something of value, they are worse than useless: they are a threat to society and need to be violently coerced into being useful. It’s why so many men are saying, “thanks, but no thanks” to the various “traditional” societal expectations of them (career, marriage, and even relationships entirely), and are going their own way. And I don’t blame them one bit.
I follow you, until the last part.
“Men don’t matter”, “women don’t matter” - those statements often seem to imply that the other gender is dominant and treats the other as disposable. This is not true - both men and women heavily suffer from bias, discrimination, and abuse - both in their own ways.
Traditional expectations hurt everybody, men and women, and should be thrown out the window. This includes a traditional concept that men are always perpetrators but not victims of abuse, among other things - something that is still commonly ignored, sometimes out of genuine ignorance, sometimes in bad faith.
My heart breaks for her. I’m glad she gets to see the support of those around her while going through this. And Jesus fuck, how can you even do that to someone? I just cannot wrap my mind of being able to hurt someone like that, and then to keep doing that, and just go on living life. I’m not religious, but I hope that man burns in hell.
Ok, wow, this is a fucked up thread.
I just came here to say “More power to her!”, she’s setting an incredible example and we need to turn back the misogyny and just general sexual violence that we’ve had in society since time immemorial.
Wow, so smart and supportive of you to pick a side and fling shit the other way.
deleted by creator
Came here to see discussions about the truly insane case mentioned in the article. Actually found an entire comment section full of ‘not all men’ vs ‘basically all men’ threads
Do I want to scroll down? Nah, not really.
I’ll just leave this here: No, not all men are rapists. Yes, all men should stand up to them. It’s that simple and if you deviate from that formula you dive into rape culture or misandry, depending, are part of the problem, actively, passively, in one way or the other.
As a man, have this attitude (there’s subtitles).
As a woman… “Dudes it’s only an embellishment” “noone thinks ‘all men’ is meant seriously” STFU you’re being catty you know exactly how often women use covert aggression, use plausible deniability to get away with the vilest shit, even if you don’t mean it like that right now, in this instance, it’s still how it’s perceived, and no, not all men deserve to be treated like that. So cut it out.
Then maybe you should understand that women rape men as frequently as men rape women:
And now the real surprise: when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).
In other words, if being made to penetrate someone was counted as rape—and why shouldn’t it be?—then the headlines could have focused on a truly sensational CDC finding: that women rape men as often as men rape women.
Now consider: how many women do you see convicted and jailed for rape?
crickets
That’s the sound of massive gender bigotry in play, right there - 50% of all cross-gender rapists getting away Scott-free, purely by virtue of their gender.
His point is that is not what the article is about. It’s off-topic.
I get that you’re passionate about getting your point across but it’s swamping the discussion a bit.
It’s not off topic. If you link me to a YouTube video with a sponsor that really sucks, I’m gonna talk about how that sponsor sucks. You can’t just tack on some garbage and be all “just ignore that part, it’s not up for debate.”
I understand that it melts discussion but every thread on this post is about that aspect, and that’s frankly a bit much.
not all men but always a man
Pointless sexist bullshit and wrong on its face. I never understood the drive some people have to paint abusive behavior as exclusive to men.
Exactly. If anything, signs like these drag the attention away from the actual issue.
I mean this thread is a good example of that and why such signs are bad
And pray tell, what exactly is the “real” issue?
Sexual assault is bad. Apparently you disagree.
Men and women being victims of sexual abuse, perpetrated by both men and women. It is not a genderlocked issue.
From your article, “In fact, 96 percent of women who report rape or sexual assault in the NCVS were abused by men.”
Those are the kinds of numbers that come from laws defining rape as penetration and then only counting convictions.
Kind of like how the US had zero married women that were victims of rape by their husbands when it wasn’t a crime for husbands to rape their wives.
that quote you gave was taken entirely out of context. here’s the very next sentence:
In presenting our findings, we argue that a comprehensive look at sexual victimization, which includes male perpetration and adds female perpetration, is consistent with feminist principles in important ways.
No but the number of assaults by men far outweigh the number by women. And that Scientific American article is just your way of brushing off the fact that men are the primary offenders when it comes to sexual assault. You are exactly like the gun enthusiasts who throw the statistics on mental illness as the true cause of gun deaths and not the guns they use.
Edit: Just cause you seem to be including that link everywhere you post here I’m going to include this link to the 2024 study of sexual assault in France.
https://www.statista.com/topics/8875/violence-against-women-in-france/#topicOverview
“Primary” does not mean “always” however
Oh yeah, you got me there. Statistically small number of women who commit sexual assault completely absolves all men of being complicit in the sexual assault committed by mostly men. We definitely have to correct our perceptions on that one. Sure okay.
Sorry you’re getting this reaction. I am a man who was abused by women and all the support groups lead to me taking to a room full of women about it. Do men come forward less often? Yes. It would have to be like 1 in 100 men coming forward for it to be equal. I’ve had one other male friend who has been assaulted, but over half of the women I’ve been friends with have.
If it helps anyone with that being anecdotal, you have to look at the statistics of who is doing it: people in power. Just that alone means more men simply have the opportunity. Add to that that men are told sex is power, and that men who have sex often are virile, whereas women who do are slut shamed. It’s getting better, but still far off.
Anyway I’ll take the downvotes, but every statistic we have shown is that men are the primary antagonist in the vast majority of sexual assault against both men and women.
hey as a guy who was assaulted, please stop saying all men are complicit. do you understand what you’re saying when you say that?
I guess it’s sometimes done in the spirit of forcing men to really consider their actions, because most of the men I know tend to think abusive men are always other men. And we usually have plenty excuses for our own abusive behavior. So it is like saying: “no, stop with the excuses, the problem is you”, in the hopes that this message will also reach its intended audience, ie the many men who are abusive to women in one way or another and, largely, in denial.
But I agree, these kinds of slogans annoy the hell out of me too and are totally not helpful in more ways than one, e.g., when men seek protection from abuse. I guess there are better ways of making a more forceful point about holding men accountable.
There’s a comedian who told a story, that I feel almost every guy can tell as if it was theirs…
They had that friend in their friends group. You know, the kne always making misogynic jokes etc. Well, yeah, that guy eventually raped someone.
You know where he says it was his, the comedian’s, fault? The whole group always laughed at those jokes, or maybe didn’t laugh, but definitely didn’t dismiss them, didn’t lecture the guy, didn’t tell him it was not ok.
There’s this men’s club where misogyny is an accepted business as usual. And it enables deranged individuals.
So, as a man who’s aware of the statistics, you can start doing some prevention: shame other men for misogyny.
Oh, and btw, fuck the lady with sign. She’s a petty sexist using someone’s tragedy to support her hate for men.
As a man, “that” guy initially received physical consequences, and is now locked in a box. All the people that made that happen also identified as men. It’s almost like rape is bad and everyone agrees, including men.
most of the men I know tend to think abusive men are always other men
I’m sure most if not all abusers are in denial and don’t consider themselves abusers, but this slogan gives a pass to ones who happen to be women by insisting that they don’t exist at all.
I don’t think that slogan communicates what you’re saying here well, if at all
The number of sexual assault victims in France increased by 33% in 2021 and nearly doubled from 2017, according to a government report. Women made up 89% of rape victims, while 96% of sexual violence perpetrators were men.
Oh yeah, that 4% of sexual assaults being committed by women that are being totally ignored by the media is the REAL problem.
The police who recite such stats in my area don’t consider me a victim of my repeated assaults, specifically because of my gender. I guess I should probably pipe down and stop being so uppity and hysterical though. After all my private parts are outside of my body so they’re basically asking to be used by anyone.
I don’t know where in the stats I quoted it said anything about dismissing male victims? In fact that statistic includes male victims because most sexual assault on males is committed by other males. Now if you were assaulted by a woman I’m sorry and that’s terrible, but the fact is that it’s a rarity in comparison to the acts committed by men. But all should be treated with equal seriousness. And none of it is, because men are in power and they don’t tend to consider rape or sexual assault a “real” crime.
Yeah, the victims of women are just babies who should quit crying about being a victim. As if it’s a REAL problem, right? Who gives a shit, they’re just men they don’t have any feelings they’re just here for our entertainment.
I can’t speak for how their “sexual violence” criterion is defined, but as for the “rape” statistic, most western countries (France probably included) define rape for reporting purposes as “forced penetration”, specifically excluding “forced envelopment” from the statistic, and thereby excluding practically all male rape victims with female perpetrators from crime statistics.
For example, here are the statistics for sexual violence in the year 2011, according to the CDC (note that these are for the US, and may be significantly different for France, though the reporting method is likely the same - there’s also a 2013 CDC report with effectively the same numbers for the US):
an estimated 1.6% of women reported that they were raped in the 12 months preceding the survey. The case count for men reporting rape in the preceding 12 months was too small to produce a statistically reliable prevalence estimate.
And
The percentages of women and men who experienced these other forms of sexual violence victimization in the 12 months preceding the survey were an estimated 5.5% and 5.1%, respectively.
Added together, we see that 7.1% of women and 5.1% of men reported being victims of sexual violence in 2011. That is, 58% of victims of all sexual violence in 2011 were women, and 42% were men. For every 3 female victims, there were 2 male victims.
Now on to the frequently cited claim that more than 95% of perpetrators are men. From the “Characteristics of Sexual Violence Perpetrators” section about a third of the way down, keeping in mind the percentages above:
For female rape victims, an estimated 99.0% had only male perpetrators (more on this later…). In addition, an estimated 94.7% of female victims of sexual violence other than rape had only male perpetrators.
And
For male victims, the sex of the perpetrator varied by the type of sexual violence experienced. The majority of male rape victims (an estimated 79.3%) had only male perpetrators. For three of the other forms of sexual violence, a majority of male victims had only female perpetrators: being made to penetrate (an estimated 82.6%), sexual coercion (an estimated 80.0%), and unwanted sexual contact (an estimated 54.7%). For noncontact unwanted sexual experiences, nearly half of male victims (an estimated 46.0%) had only male perpetrators and an estimated 43.6% had only female perpetrators.
To help us with the breakdowns of these numbers, earlier in the report we find that:
1.7% of men were made to penetrate a perpetrator in the 12 months preceding the survey [and] an estimated 1.3% of men experienced sexual coercion in the 12 months before taking the survey [and] an estimated 1.6% of men having experienced unwanted sexual contact in the 12 months before taking the survey [and] an estimated 2.5% of men experienced this type of victimization (noncontact unwanted sexual experiences) in the previous 12 months
So, of the 1.7% of made to penetrate male victims, 82.6% of perpetrators were female. Of the 1.3% sexual coercion, 80% of perpetrators were female. Of the 1.6% unwanted sexual contact, 54.7% were female, and of the 2.5% noncontact, 43.6% were female.
So, 1.4% of the 1.7% made to penetrate, 1% of the 1.3% sexual coercion, .9% of the 1.6% unwanted sexual contact, and 1.1% of the 2.5% noncontact.
So, 4.4% of the 7.1% of men reporting sexual violence had female perpetrators. That is, 62% of sexual violence against men is committed by women (in 2011).
So, going back to our numbers above, we see that 62% of the 42% of sexual violence with men as victims was committed by women.
Our final numbers are: 74% of sexual violence in total in the US is committed by men, and 26% is committed by women. Which ain’t great, but that feels a lot more realistic than “95%”, and it’s a far cry from the intentionally misleading numbers you’re citing.
BUT IT GETS WORSE…
What happens when we look at just rape? Note that first we have to figure out what the CDC means by “rape”, because at first “99% of rape is committed by men” looks pretty damning.
Well, “rape” is defined by the CDC for the purposes of this study as “completed or attempted forced penetration or alcohol- or drug-facilitated penetration”. That is, only being penetrated counts as rape.
Men, on the other hand, get the completely separate category “made to penetrate”, that is, “being forced to have sex with someone, just doing the penetrating instead of being penetrated.”
So, 99% of rapists are men because rape is intentionally defined as “being penetrated” to exclude male victims of rape from the statistics. I wonder why…
Well, what happens when we actually look at those numbers, counting “made to penetrate” as, y’know, rape, because it is rape?
an estimated 1.6% of women (or approximately 1.9 million women) were raped in the 12 months before taking the survey
And
The case count for men reporting rape in the preceding 12 months was too small to produce a statistically reliable prevalence estimate.
Which is, again, because male rape victims are effectively excluded from this definition. Also, we have this:
an estimated 1.7% of men were made to penetrate a perpetrator in the 12 months preceding the survey
And
Characteristics of Sexual Violence Perpetrators For female rape victims, an estimated 99.0% had only male perpetrators. In addition, an estimated 94.7% of female victims of sexual violence other than rape had only male perpetrators. For male victims, the sex of the perpetrator varied by the type of sexual violence experienced. The majority of male rape victims (an estimated 79.3%) had only male perpetrators. For three of the other forms of sexual violence, a majority of male victims had only female perpetrators: being made to penetrate (an estimated 82.6%), sexual coercion (an estimated 80.0%),
Note that these numbers clearly show that made to penetrate happens just as much each year as “rape”. This means that fully half of rape victims are men (in 2011 - the number fluctuates in the other years of the study, but not more than 5%).
Finally, if 99% of rapists are men and 83% of an equal number of “made to penetrators” are women … then an estimated 42% of the perpetrators of nonconsensual sex (that is, rape) in 2011 were women.
Sorry for the wall of text, but I think it’s important to debunk this sort of misandrist misinformation.
Edit: Here’s a Time article that confirms these numbers. They also mention that boys under 15 are more likely to be sexually assaulted than women over 40, and are more than twice as likely to be assaulted as girls under 15. Again, this may be different for France, but it’s pretty damning for the US.
Finally, if 99% of rapists are men and 83% of “made to penetrators” are women … then an estimated 42% of the perpetrators of nonconsensual sex (that is, rape) in 2011 were women.
Who the fuck taught you statistics? A large percentage of a small percentage added to the larger percentage of the whole doesn’t make a medium percentage of the whole. JFC 😮💨
And misandry isn’t really a thing. It’s something misogynists say in order to perpetuate a false equivalency. So thanks for outing yourself.
You are the problem. I very much look forward to 5 years from now when you will bolt up in bed in the middle of the night with a crushing realization of how unacceptable your past behavior was.
Who the fuck taught you statistics? A large percentage of a small percentage added to the larger percentage of the whole doesn’t make a medium percentage of the whole. JFC 😮💨
Tell me you didn’t read my comment without telling me you didn’t read my comment (the paragraph you want is the one immediately above the one you quoted, btw - I’ve made an edit to the paragraph you quoted to make the math clearer).
You could also feel free to check the Time article I linked to see someone else come to the same numbers I did.
And misandry isn’t really a thing. It’s something misogynists say in order to perpetuate a false equivalency. So thanks for outing yourself.
Big oof. I can see that you’re far too set in your sexism for me to waste any more time trying to have a constructive conversation with you.
I did look at your time article and I did read your comment, the whole thing. I stand by my assessment of your lack of statistical prowess.
And would you like to know why I completely dismissed the entire Time magazine article?
Cathy Young is a contributing editor at Reason magazine.
That right there is the author of the article. And if I have to explain to you what Reason Magazine is then you’re part of the problem.
I’m not out to debate the statistics of “REAL problem” with you. I’m pointing out that it’s counterproductive (and I believe morally wrong) to tell survivors they’re unworthy because their abuser was a woman. I get the feeling some people care more about gendering this issue than they do about about victims of abuse.
Yeah literally no one is saying that a victim of sexual assault is unworthy of anything because their assaulter is a woman and not a man. We’re talking about the issue of men thinking it’s okay to sexually assault because it’s almost never fucking prosecuted.
Bringing up the statistic of female perpetrators is simply a way of deflecting the responsibility of men to acknowledge and hold accountability to their fellow men who commit sexual assault.
I’ve said it elsewhere in this thread but this is exactly the same as the gun enthusiasts bringing up mental illness statistics as a way of absolving guns of their role in gun violence.
Thread has a photo of a sign saying “not all men but always a man”.
Bringing up the statistic of female perpetrators is simply a way of deflecting the responsibility of
No. Bringing up the statistic is a way of correcting an intentionally skewed view that is vilifying men for no fucking reason. If you’re gonna be a dick about things, don’t go crying when you get shafted.
Since men are the primary perpetrators it’s not skewed not even a little bit. Yes, there are women who commit sexual assault but the number of women who do it is such a small percentage as to be almost statistically insignificant compared to the number of men who do.
Men commit sexual assault every single day and barely 5% of them get prosecuted for it. And every person who claps back with this idiotic argumentative excuse that “women do it too” is just feeding into a system that has made this world completely unsafe for women.
men are the primary perpetrators
the number of women who do it is such a small percentage as to be almost statistically insignificant compared to the number of men who do.
Men commit sexual assault every single day
barely 5% of them get prosecuted for it.
Citation needed
Listen, it’s very obvious we’re not on the same page. You’re responding to a comment thread that contains a comment literally contradicting most of your points, and you’re not being rational about it. You’re spouting wild claims with little regard for backing them up - it’s as if în your head, they’re axioms and not only do they not require proof, but invalidating them would mean the rest of the world crumbles. And I’m sure for you, that’s true.
All things considered, continuing this “discussion” brings no value to either of us. Have a good one.
Citation needed
Yeah, this just told me everything I need to know. I didn’t even read the rest of your comment. I’m just going to downvote you and move on.
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From your article, “In fact, 96 percent of women who report rape or sexual assault in the NCVS were abused by men.”
Plus, when has a man ever been drugged and gang raped by only women? That’s what’s even more disturbing about this case.
Oh so we can only care about male victims of rape if they’re gangraped now? Gotta admit this is a new one on me, most just tell me I must have enjoyed it both times women raped me because I’m a man.
Who gives a shit about all that though, because one of them got me drunk so I wasn’t “drugged” and there was only one of her, and the other was also singular and only used blackmail rather than intoxicants. Besides, men don’t have feelings anyway they’re like fish. I don’t even think they’re people, are they?
I did not say any of that.
You replied in addition to a comment that is attempting to erase male victims experiences by waving them away as “only 4%.” Thus, you saying “plus it’s not like men are drugged and gangraped” reads as a tag on why we can further ignore male victims of rape, “because women have it worse” being the implication.
Ok Mr False Equivalency. That study is from 2017. This one is from 2015.
That Scientific American article and study also pertain to America. And the statistic in the article is from the French government report from 2021.Edit: I couldn’t find the statistics from 2021 but I could find this one from 2024. And would you look at that, the statistics on the percentage of male rapists in France is even higher now.
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Funny how ready you are to claim a random person you don’t know is an abuser for making a good point.
And completely failing to comprehend that what YOU are doing is abusive behavior. Real gold star child behavior.
I think that was a meme that should have been put on the sign, not against the comment.
If that’s the case, holy shit does that need to be specified.
Seemed pretty clear to me that @ShareMySims@sh.itjust.works is calling me a rapist for daring to criticize the claim that rapists are always men
Yeah, that was my take, too.
Same, hence why I replied to them. Lots of mental gymnastics to see it any other way.
Edit: Based on this(https://sh.itjust.works/comment/14310375) comment by them, further down the thread, seems like you were correct. Hope the mods do something about that bigoted asshole, whom I already reported.
Or like, dont just make assumptions about what people seem to be saying and ask them what they are trying to say?
Saves a lot of needless anger and confusion to just extend an iota of goodwill before jumping to conclusions
People are literally the worst at communicating to each other when we don’t have personal relationships with the other people
And when i said don’t JUST make assumptions it means exactly that. Make your assumptions if you need to but if you don’t confirm them then maybe do that before you get upset with another person’s words
Based on this(https://sh.itjust.works/comment/14310375) comment by them, further down the thread, seems like you were correct. Hope the mods do something about that bigoted asshole, whom I already reported.
Sorry, I don’t understand what you said.
Edit: Oh, you meant that it should be on one of the posters protesting about The Monster of Avignon, then certainly. He is a disgusting human, completely atrocious and his wife is a massive hero, for standing up to such scrutiny and to the public eye, I wish I could bake her a pie or something for being so brave, and an inspiration to abuse victims everywhere.
This is the way.
Who the hell down view me for this… And why!?
I would assume it was because the person who posted said “meme” turned out to be a sexist asshole, taking their “benefit of the doubt” and wiping their ass with it further down the comments, and getting a bunch of those comments deleted.
guys always is an embellishment. it’s almost funny that not all men became not always men. obviously not always men but if you think the numbers are comparable you’re living in a fantasy land.
but if you think the numbers are comparable you’re living in a fantasy land.
The CDC - the largest medical org on the f**king planet - has clearly established that women rape men as frequently as men rape women:
And now the real surprise: when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).
In other words, if being made to penetrate someone was counted as rape—and why shouldn’t it be?—then the headlines could have focused on a truly sensational CDC finding: that women rape men as often as men rape women.
We’re not the ones living in fantasy land – you are, by either ignorance or malice. Which is your source of gender bigotry and misandry?
Most men never report, or if they do it’s ignored. I’ve only told one person irl about the 2x it’s happened to me (both times I was forced by women btw, how’s that for “it’s always men” hmm?)
MAYBE if whenever we claim “it’s all men” or “it’s always men” or some such sentiment “it always devolves into a discussion about how it’s not all men,” MAYBE it’s time to stop doing that so the conversation can fucking progress? Nah let’s keep up the tribalism, it’s more fun to sow division than actually work on the issue at hand. Ffs.
I think it’s more that as a non rapist I don’t really take it personally when women talk about concerns about the general attitude they receive from men.
Well maybe it takes being raped by two different woman before you start feeling bad about being called a rapist for existing with penis despite being a victim. In any case your feelings are not universal and you don’t get to minimize my experiences and tell me how to feel about being categorized with the aggressors while the people who raped ME are categorized with the “only victims who can do no wrong” gender.
As a non-rapist, I’m sick of constantly being seen as a high-risk individual just for having a penis despite dedicating a lot of attention to consent and being generally a highly empathetic person.
People who know me well trust me and see me as a very safe and gentle person - but in the outside world, I’m equated with rapists around a random trait.
well yeah. are you suggesting women should just trust you because you seem nice? their interactions with men from the moment they first set foot out their door suggests otherwise. to them you are high risk until they know you. you admit that once people know you they do trust you do why are you being so offended that people who don’t know you don’t? they shouldn’t.
you shouldn’t trust any woman that she won’t do anything bad to you either, but the fact remains that you’re in much less of a risk in that regard than a random woman around a random man. the mere notion that this is in any way an equivalent risk is ridiculous.
The thing is, the amount of fear displayed against men is disproportional to the actual risk they pose. This probably has cultural roots, as awareness of such risks turned into an overreaction.
More and more research comes out showing women are fully capable of abusive behavior and display it much more often that we’ve come to believe, yet as little light is shed on this in the public eye, women are still perceived as much more safe, which isn’t true either.
And besides, “men” are too big and diverse of a group to reasonably tie to any possible behavior.
I specifically noted that I don’t believe in any essential differences between men and women. this is all societal, and patriarchy plays a big role not only in the predation of women but also men and the subsequent lack of reporting.
but in the current society women are safer than men. I have never set foot out my door and considered the possibility of being sexually harassed. women do it every time, and no, not just because our perceptions are skewed, but because we have different experiences.
this is anecdotal because i can’t do studies. most of the time defenses are put up by women because they actually go through something. not because they start life that way.
And I specifically meant to say we gain ever increasing knowledge that women are not safer in many regards - not just inherently, but overall. While brute-force attacks against men are less common, harassment, coercion, mental abuse and manipulations are rampant, and are weaponized against everyone, including strangers. (With that being said, some women, especially armed, do engage in direct physical abuse, and men can use mental one).
And I wonder what part of fears average woman faces is personal experience vs culture and upbringing. Same events can be interpreted in many different ways depending on how you are preconditioned, and if we’d train men to be wary of women, we’d certainly see more fears spread around. (Mind you, I do not say women do not face real and clear instances of abuse; some do!)
The numbers are also suppressed for men because we are not believed or taken seriously whereas women are typically believed by default.
I mean even considering that. if we magically learned the real numbers today there should still be a grand canyon between them. if you think it’s any close you’re either fooling yourself or biased by personal trauma.
just as a note: the argument I’m making is not based on any essential characteristics of men vs women. I’m not arguing men are biologically coded to SA more or whatever. it’s about societal conditions. conditions which, by the way, contribute to the problem you’re talking about.
What ratio do you think has any meaning? What if the meaning is just that men have a higher “success rate” for just being better at it or even just being scarier. What if it just means men are more often consenting where they otherwise shouldn’t be?
I don’t remember calling anything meaningless so I don’t get your first question.
also if men have a better success rate that makes them more of a problem, don’t really get what the argument is there
also don’t understand what you mean consenting where they shouldn’t be. you either consent or don’t. if you’re alluding to coercion that’s not consent and it shouldn’t be named as such. otherwise I don’t get what you mean at all.
‘Not all men but always a man’ seems to marginalise victims of female rapists, which do exist.
Otherwise, I’m absolutely in favour of rehabilitation, and if necessary, isolation of rapists - of all genders. I hope the court/government can be made to agree
‘Not all men but always a man’ seems to marginalise victims of female rapists, which do exist.
Oh, it’s much worse than that: the CDC - the largest medical org on the f**king planet - has clearly established that women rape men as frequently as men rape women:
And now the real surprise: when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).
In other words, if being made to penetrate someone was counted as rape—and why shouldn’t it be?—then the headlines could have focused on a truly sensational CDC finding: that women rape men as often as men rape women.
50% of all cross-gender rapists are women, and yet almost 100% of all convicted rapists are men.
What an exemplary case of systemic gender bigotry and misandry in society and the legal establishment.
From the article:
The number of sexual assault victims in France increased by 33% in 2021 and nearly doubled from 2017, according to a government report. Women made up 89% of rape victims, while 96% of sexual violence perpetrators were men.
It seems that sexual violence has been hidden in plain sight and downplayed heavily by the police and justice system, or simply socially accepted.
It’s estimated 10% of people have been victim of incest, here in France. How can you build something safe based on that.
I don’t believe our current justice system allows for proper rehabilitation. Second offense for such crimes are still very high (10%?).
IMHO It’s a nation wide educational failure and our politicians aren’t really keen on fixing this, for now.
Keep in mind those numbers don’t perfectly reflect reality though. Probably a few percents off in favor of women
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Were you responding to something specific I said or just providing more facts?
Just providing more facts on the “all men” plus maybe a bit more context on the situation here.
If you flag the same post multiple times again, you will be banned.
You cannot flag the same post multiple times on Lemmy.
You’re under the impression it is because it’s an exact copy paste comment multiple times in the same post which is the reason I flagged it as spam…
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Women made up 89% of rape victims, while 96% of sexual violence perpetrators were men.
Oh yes that 4% really really must be stopped.
Yes.
All of it should be. Why the fuck shouldn’t it be stopped too? Wtf?
Nice try from an overly quoted study done on bad faith, here is a better one that shows, with sources, that said study is incorrect.
From your article, “In fact, 96 percent of women who report rape or sexual assault in the NCVS were abused by men.”
I like how he talks about the “overly quoted study” (which is not actually where the statistic in the article comes from, but whatever) and yet he has posted this same article literally everywhere in here as a way of justifying dismissal of the fact that nearly all rapes and sexual assaults are committed by men.
I can tell all of those commenting on “Not all men …” this: Those women don’t give a shit what you think. So 4% aren’t men, you know what, it might not be technically correct, but it’s certainly close enough.
Also you sound like the “All Lives Matter” folks.
Let it go.
Yeah I also saw the similarly to ALM in the comments of this post.
Yes, women also abuse men (and also other women), but the vast majority of cases that appear before a judge involve men as the perpetrators. I’d want to tackle the big problems first if I have to prioritize cultural (and sexual) progress of a society.
But I also recognize bias exists at pretty much every level of this process, inside or outside of a courtroom. I think we should still value evidence over hearsay, as was demonstrated in a case like Depp v. Heard, yet show compassion for victims because they need to feel safe to speak up, no matter the gender.
Ooh good, only 4%? I’m an anomaly and deserve to be categorized with the aggressors instead of the victims because while I am the victim of two different women I happen to be a male, so fuck me!
Certainly close enough says the expert. And then someone in the other thread explains how the legal definition is so fkd up it essentially excludes male victims. Tell me about real sexism here.
But you know what? It shouldn’t fuckin matter either way, because if it does to you, you’re the problem.
The heck you mean “close enough”, 4% is not within margin of error, and even then this is a grave accusation to lump on an entire demographic.
Um, you know the picture in the article would refute that right?
I can refute gravity. What of it?
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Women made up 89% of rape victims, while 96% of sexual violence perpetrators were men.
Ok, so not so men but 96% of perpetrators are men.
This very precise statistic comes from a single study made in bad faith, over 20 years ago. If you want to read a more recent study, with linked sources, feel free to check https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known/
That percentage came from the 2021 report by the French government. This is not outdated information. And it’s pertains to France not America.
Dude just shut the fuck up about that study xD most rape is done by men towards women, quit acting like that’s just not the case. Women deserve to not be raped, can you just say that with no qualifiers?
Women deserve to not be raped, can you just say that with no qualifiers?
Can you say that without qualifiers? NOBODY deserves to be raped, including men. How ironic can you get?
Nobody deserves to get raped. You can stop worrying now :3
Yes that’s why you say “dude shut the fuck up” to male victims and minimize their experiences, and completely leave them out of your “doesn’t deserve to be raped” category until called out.
Dude just shut the fuck up about that study xD most rape is done by men towards women, quit acting like that’s just not the case. Women deserve to not be raped, can you just say that with no qualifiers?
How 'bout you shut the fuck up and let male victims share their feelings and experiences too.
I can, but it doesn’t get much more “all lives matter” than coming to a post about women protesting about the disproportionate sexual violence they face and saying “men get raped TOO so fuck you for advocating for yourself and having a sign that offends me”
I would prefer to say, nobody deserves to be raped, and as long as people keep giving that flawed statistic that harms both male and female victims of rape, I have no reason not to share it.
That kind of disregard is what keeps most female child rapists out of jail, or nets them far lesser sentences.
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actually decent men are aware that they are complicit by their very existence as men under the patriarchy
Could you fucking imagine saying this about any other group of people
No, no one is complicit in anything by their very existence. You don’t get to blame people for other people doing something bad in a group they didn’t choose to belong to.
actually decent men are aware that they are complicit by their very existence as men under the patriarchy, and invest their energy in being better and calling out their fellow men to try and improve your collective reputation
This is bald-faced, shameless bigotry and reflects a real lack of self awareness
I do do that for approximately those reasons. And I want to slap the fuck out of whoever wrote this text just as much as you.
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Reported.
Oh shit the MRAs are out in force in this thread 🙄
Real Redditor kinda behaviour going on here tbh.
This is only natural because the post features a picture of a woman holding a highly misandric and hugely misleading sign.
Besides, it’s one of the rare venues to talk of what’s important. And when there actually are rare posts or comments regarding abuse of men, many women flock in as well to tell about women rights.
Men are trash, these comments are all the proof you need for that. Pls stop acting like women aren’t raped super disproportionately often, it just makes you look like a cunt and a rape apologist. Yes men are raped, and it’s no less horrible than when women are raped. But women get raped SO much more often, and you just can’t deny that without blatantly lying. Trying to deny it is no better than #AllLivesMatter bullshit. No shit all lives matter, but bringing that up when people put a spotlight on the struggles on a specific group only serves to distract from an actual attempt at making people’s lives better
Women are trash, two different ones have raped me specifically and the treatment I get from women is “men are trash.” Fuck y’all right back then howboutdat?
You’re trash. The numbers do not reflect reality because men are ignored and disbelieved because of people like you.
- You don’t know the real numbers
- All Lives Matter would’ve been a better protest slogan to begin with
- Men are not trash, women are not trash, some of both are, you definitely belong in there regardless of your gender identity. You can be a non-binary trash if you prefer, but I can guarantee you’re trash.
Let’s see how long it takes for rape apologists to show up
Bro they’ve been here the whole time, they’re just apologizing for woman perpetrators of male victims because it’s “only 4%” so who gives a shit about male victims, lump them in with the perpetrators.
I’m a man who was sexually abused by a woman when I was a child. If I point out that the sign in the thumbnail is both untrue and is a dangerous oversimplification am I a rape apologist?
At least 3 unhinged morons agree that you’re a rape apologist.
I have encountered more lunatics on Lemmy than I have in any other place in my entire life. It’s fucking astounding.
Have you… Heard of the R word?
I don’t think that happens here? One of the reasons I’ve stuck with lemmy is that it’s relatively nice.
The commenter probably saw the “Always a man” part of the protest sign and is daring someone to deny it.
It’s an unfortunate sign to feature in the main article picture because it distracts from the story. There’s no issue focusing on one part of an issue (victimization of women) and not all parts (sexual abuse and rape in general). But denying the larger problem exists is counterproductive.
Pointing out language that excludes a massive number of victims isn’t rape apology.
Women can be victims of women too, though. Look at how many mothers have subjected their daughters to genital mutilation, for example.
I think it’s pretty reasonable to say, “please don’t use exclusionary language that implies some victims are more valid than others”.
I’ll take the bait too because I’ve personally known a female abuser (never did anything to me but raped a 14 year old as a teacher) and it makes me furious that a so-called activist would not only disregard crime that doesn’t fit their narrative, but try to gaslight the rest of the world into doing it too.
It’s an unfortunate sign to feature in the main article picture because it distracts from the story.
Unfortunate but not a mistake. Like anything else in media, their only goal is to sew controversy and drive clicks and “engagement”. I can’t imagine any other reason why this would be the main photo of the article. I hope and do not believe that this is the kinda sexist bullshit that represents the majority.
Ngl, as a male victim of two different women, yeah it kinda is the majority. Most people would rather categorize me with the abusers because of my genetalia than with the victims, even though I’ve never victimized anyone but have been myself twice, and when I have a problem with that I’m the problem because “it’s mostly men anyway” and “you must’ve enjoyed it because you’re a man” etc.
In my area, the legal definition of rape requires penetration, women can’t even be charged with it, at most it’s considered “sexual assault.” Good luck trying to report it unless you’re a minor, if the cops even come, they may arrest you, and if they do arrest her she’s unlikely to be convicted of SA, and if she is it’s a slap on the wrist, again unless the male victim is -18.
And every time you bring it up you’re the problem. Nobody fucking cares at all and in fact you’re a bad person for not accepting your role as “defacto rapist” for the crime of being born with a penis.
Because the braindead instances get blocked by most, and I love it ❤️
I’d say it (E: not just rape apology, but misogyny in general) only happens a tiny margin less than on the rest of the internet, which is to say it still happens a whole fucking lot, even if they are sometimes a little less blatant with it.
E: in case the replies and the up/down vote ratios in this post alone isn’t evidence enough, the mod log sure shows what positions are defended in one of the biggest spaces on here.
Yes, the one protecting rape victims no matter the gender, and the one against people like you, who call people you don’t know abusers, just for having a penis. I hope you grow some empathy one day, and figure out what you did wrong here.
